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FAA NextGen Air Traffic Control & Close Proximity Events

 
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NME



Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 1633

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: FAA NextGen Air Traffic Control & Close Proximity Events Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Watch the first few minutes of this edit from Thursday's flight at Crestline...

Link


The numbers of close proximity encounters have only been increasing since this new system was activated: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/
Please pay attention to your surroundings and use radio to alert one another with specifics about approaching aircraft.
Thanks!
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mrobin604



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/communityengagement/socal/media/FONSI_ROD_160818_FINAL_Electronic_Signature.pdf

No mention of recreational impact or hang gliding is mad in the environmental analysis.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/communityengagement/socal/media/New_Procedures_Burbank_Van_Nuys_Feb_2017.pdf

This plan has a lot of outbound traffic from Burbank and Van Nuys going right over Sylmar.

Both docs taken from this page:
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/communityengagement/socal/
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NME



Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 1633

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks Marshall.
I have an ongoing dialogue with air traffic control regarding this matter. As it stands right now, we are constrained by the FAR103 'See & Avoid' rules.

We may utilize air-band radio to monitor for approaching air traffic.

The use of air-band radio to contact air traffic control is an ambiguous matter that I have more knowledgeable pilots looking into right now.

The FAA has been alerted numerous times by me and so far is sticking to the 'See & Avoid' rhetoric. The only guidance they offer on this was written in 1983 (see AC 103-6).

There is no FAA guidance that I am aware of on ultralight use of air-band. I am seeking clarification which may take some time in coming.

I have a friend who is both a hang glider pilot as well as commercial air captain. He will be contacting his HQ and get me an introduction if possible. I will make my presentation and ask questions.

Let's be perfectly frank here:
We are at the very bottom of the food chain and are essentially begging for the limited freedoms we have to soar above the urban skies.

There is an optical illusion with other aircraft. I have taken many images of aircraft that I thought were a goalpost's distance away. When I computed the angular size in the sky and multiplied by the known dimensions almost invariably the powered aircraft are 3 to 6 times father away than they appear.

If you want to be close to an inbound commercial jet at a known distance then sit outside at In n Out Burger on Sepulveda in Culver City. I'm certain you know the one. Airliners look like they're 50' feet away but are many, many times this distance. People may call me DQ in jest but I have heard members of our club scream bloody murder on 2-meter about alleged near-collisions with powered aircraft. I've got nothing on these pilots in the histrionics department.

I have in fact had chopper pilots go after me in the air. Two were USFS and one was a sheriff dept chopper. This is a different story and they were being cowboys. No so with airlines. The airline guys are moving up to 250kts. That is really fast and they can't maneuver like a chopper or GA craft. They don't see us unless we ID on air-band over the ATC or local tower frequency. I have a PG acquaintance who has done this but at high altitude and downrange. Yes, the UPS pilot saw him and the others and was appreciative but they're hauling cargo and not people.

I have a sales pitch to give to those in a position to help us out and I'm awaiting some follow-up. The NexGen Multiplex is a done deal. Those landing approach paths are unlikely to change unless there's an event that puts many of us at high altitudes. I have manged to get all traffic re-routed on one occasion. It worked and it was necessary. But if every HG and PG pilot with an air-band radio starts squawking and demanding respect, we are only going to find ourselves losing site access or Class E/G airspace and regarded as the Boys Who Cry Wolf.

If you want to see what really close looks like then watch this. The hotdog flying that jet killed himself and everyone on board the same day or soon thereafter.


Link


The best way to illustrate just how far away these heavies really and truly are would be for me to take my glider and GoPro setup to In N Out in Culver City and point at the runway as if the airliner flew 300' in front of me. Then we can all see what a near-collision really looks like. Now that I've written this, I might just do it.
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Loren



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: NextGen Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's too bad USHPA and the hang gliding community in general has its head stuck in the sands of the past on the issue of collision avoidance. This is the 21st century. Because of the requirement to see and avoid faster aircraft that can come from any direction, low-speed ultralight aircraft need, and should have, should have electronic assistance for the task of collision avoidance. I've been saying for quite awhile that we need, in addition to GPS, transponder readers and software that can alert us, not to every aircraft, but specifically to those that are headed toward us. Such capabilities can and should be integrated with our existing instruments.
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NME



Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 1633

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: NextGen Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Loren wrote:
It's too bad USHPA and the hang gliding community in general has its head stuck in the sands of the past on the issue of collision avoidance. This is the 21st century. Because of the requirement to see and avoid faster aircraft that can come from any direction, low-speed ultralight aircraft need, and should have, should have electronic assistance for the task of collision avoidance. I've been saying for quite awhile that we need, in addition to GPS, transponder readers and software that can alert us, not to every aircraft, but specifically to those that are headed toward us. Such capabilities can and should be integrated with our existing instruments.

Happy Birthday Loren!
In the next 3-4 weeks Uavionix will introduce their Ping USB unit for under $200 that WiFi connects to a tablet using AVARE app and we'll be able to see all ADS-B equipped aircraft on the screen. I plan to be an early adapter. It runs on 5VDC so power will be simple. I'll either adapt and existing pod or make a new one to hold everything. Until I've used it in flight I won't really know whether it's useful.

I initiated contact with the Riverside FSDO in order to establish air-band radio protocols locally but that will affect their district which includes Crestline and the Eastern San Gabriel mountains and not the LA district or Sylmar/Burbank.

If we want to broadcast on ADS-B the Uavionix system cost closer to $2,000. I'll be happy just to know whose coming my way and move over for a few hundred dollars. As long as pilots are on 2-meter and we have one alert pilot monitoring air traffic then perhaps a meaningful alert can be broadcast as needed.

Cheers, JD
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NME



Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 1633

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I made this so pilots can get a sense of what 'too close' really looks like....


Link
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rebardan



Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: NextGen/ADS-B Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Loren wrote:
It's too bad USHPA and the hang gliding community in general has its head stuck in the sands of the past on the issue of collision avoidance.
Such capabilities can and should be integrated with our existing instruments.


USHPA has and IS aware of all of this and has been for years. What is known is that there is no easy solution to the issue. Technology is advancing rapidly. Fortunately, big money is being spent by big companies and technology is going to be able to move laterally into our very small realm. See and avoid is by nature a weak form of avoidance, especially for HG vs airliners on approach. I have mentioned integrating the next gen technology to two of the largest instrument mfgrs. I dont foresee them leading the way but eagerly await a smaller manufacturer to break in with an integrated system that suits our needs and hopefully prevents "the big one".
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 507
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: NextGen/ADS-B Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rebardan wrote:
USHPA has and IS aware of all of this and has been for years.

Yes, just as they had been aware of the problems that led to the loss of pilot's insurance for years ... and did nothing until it was too late.
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rebardan



Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: ADS-B Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My first take on the ADS-B devices was that it would be better to have receive only as not to clog the system with HG and PG's positions and future locations cant be extrapolated like powered craft can. Now I'm thinking that for our so cal sites, that maybe a 'miles wide' cloud of dots showing up on an approaching airliners screen would encourage them to choose to deviate course in order to avoid a potential conflict. I flew Goodsprings, just outside of Las Vegas, last month on the way to King on a northeast day and I saw 3 airliners fly beneath me during that short 40 minute flight back to the freeway. Very uncomfortable worrying if a jet is going to fly right up your rear. Watching downwind trying to spot a 20 ton speck is a difficult task.
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Loren



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: NextGen Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

NME wrote:
It runs on 5VDC so power will be simple.


Thanks for this information, Jonathan, it sounds quite promising. Looking at the unit, I think it is powered by the USB connection, which is good. AVARE appears to be open-source, so it might be possible to add an "audible alert" capability. It's too bad we need to add a second screen; it would be wonderful if avionics companies like Flytec could introduce units that the PingUSB could connect to and adapt the AVARE software to display on the same screen.
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Loren



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: ADS-B Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rebardan wrote:
My first take on the ADS-B devices was that it would be better to have receive only as not to clog the system with HG and PG's positions...


In a perfect world, we should have units that transmit only when a powered aircraft is approaching us so that both pilots are aware of the potential conflict. Software in the avionics of powered aircraft could easily filter out transmissions that are of no concern to the pilot of that aircraft.
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Spitfire



Joined: 24 May 2011
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Looks like there was a near miss with a glider over Chicago this afternoon: https://thepointsguy.com/2017/09/united-737-avoids-midair-collision-ohare/
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