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USHPA pulls Torrey Exemption: The story behind the headlines
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 518
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Pick & Choose.. Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Alan,

I don't know what you do for a living, but I hope it doesn't require much logical reasoning.

My conclusion below is based on USHPA knowing about the FAA tandem violations at Torrey for at least a decade and not doing anything in all that time. You have not proven that false.

My conclusion is also based on USHPA ignoring the hazardous training practices reported by a USHPA Director in 2010. You have not proven that false either.

My conclusion is also based on the timing between Max Marien's tandem rating being pulled (or placed on "voluntary suspension") and the Torrey concessionaire obtaining a non-USHPA tandem exemption. You have not proved that false either.

My conclusion is also based on the timing of USHPA's nasty broadcast message and the Torrey concessionaire finding another tandem exemption so Max Marien (Robin Marien's son) could continue flying tandems for hire. You haven't proved that false either.

My conclusion is also based on the stream of income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concessionaire. You haven't proved that wrong either and you've refused to provide any accounting of the amount of money that USHPA gets through Torrey.

In short, you haven't proven anything. To make matters worse you won't even answer the simple questions that would be helpful in proving or disproving anything. Your dodging of those simple questions shows that you are not communicating in good faith. That's yet another surprise from the "no surprises" candidate.

I have asked a few very reasonable questions that are highly relevent to the topic. So far you've given no answers. There's a reason you haven't answered and anyone with a functioning brain can see right through your desperate diversions.

So will you answer those questions or not? I predict you'll contine to dodge them. See if you can prove that wrong.

AlC wrote:
Bob:

Here was your (proven incorrect) conclusion from the same post:

"So USHPA didn't step in to fix a problem. They stepped in to retaliate against Air California Adventure because USHPA wasn't getting a cut of their joy ride money any more. That's what USHPA does. They don't fix problems, but they retaliate against anyone who they don't like at the moment. Last year it was me. This year it's Air California Adventure"

Clearly incorrect.

Alan

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AlC



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Can't convivce a rock Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob:

Two of your points were proven incorrect several pages ago. The scientific method requires you to update your theory when the facts do not fit.

It makes no sense to answer new questions, or continue to use up electrons, when the other party cannot, or will not, see the evidence before them.

Let me offer another theory; USHPA issued the rescission for exactly the facts stated in the notice.

That theory is a lot less complex and doesn't require 5 year old videos, or secret deals, or slights to Bob, or Hillary's e-mail, or the existence of big foot.

Instead of inventing some long, conspiracy laden chain of reasoning that does not fit the facts; go ahead and test that theory. It might surprise you by being the full story.

- Alan
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 518
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Scientific Method requires establishing the facts first. You have avoided that by refusing to provide them.

You spend more time making up excuses for not answering questions than if you just answered them ("use up electrons", really?).

If you want to rely on the cover story that USHPA was really concerned about tandem violations, then it's fair to ask how long USHPA knew about those illegal tandems. It's fair to ask why USHPA didn't take action BEFORE the Torrey concessionaire found another tandem waiver to use.

It's also fair to ask why the Torrey concessionaire began using another tandem waiver in the first place. Did that happen to coincide with the tandem suspension ("voluntary" or not) of Robin Marien's son Max?

These are the kinds of facts that would expose what's going on inside USHPA, but you won't provide them.

Among the hidden motives for my expulsion in 2015 was USHPA's fear that I might win another term as Regional Director and get to the bottom of the corruption in that supposed "pilot's" organization. That's something you're obviously not willing to do. Instead you've become a "mouthpiece" for Mark Forbes on forums where he won't dare to post himself. That's another surprise from you Alan. You seem to be full of them.
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 518
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Most notably Alan, this topic has been going back and forth for well over a month now and you've refused to answer the key questions that would help to resolve it. Here they are again for everyone to see:

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
No answers from Alan Crouse yet?

Didn't he run as the "no more surprises director"? I have to say I'm surprised he won't answer a few easy questions after trying to derail this topic. Alan's refusal to provide clear answers is an example of the dysfunctionality that's led to USHPA's uninsurability.

Alan Crouse:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey? 

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked or suspended (whether by USHPA or "internally")? 

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption? 

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including magazine advertisements). 

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers? 

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dhmartens



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 824
Location: Reseda

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


Link




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Toestub



Joined: 19 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: It isn't working....... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The definition of insanity: Doing the same things over and over expecting different results.
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dhmartens



Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 824
Location: Reseda

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

More profound words were never spoken by a brilliant millennial.
http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-simpsons-renewed-season-29-season-30-fox-1201909858/
30 seasons

Jeff Sessions Attorney General




Link

Go ahead San Diego City Council and Renew ACA - Make my day.

Link

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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 518
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dhmartens wrote:

Link


Doug, thanks very much for that video of Jebb. His own words are much more of an indictment than anything I could say. I hadn't seen that video before your post, and I really appreciate your effort to share it. Thanks.

Unfortunately, I fear that San Diego will follow Toestub's definition of insanity and renew the Torrey lease with the Jebb crew.

I also fear that USHPA will similarly follow their pattern (insanity) of backing an abusive concessionaire at Torrey.

As for Alan, he won't answer my questions - and I never expected that he would. He can't answer those questions honestly without making USHPA look bad. My purpose in repeating those questions is to make that point crystal clear to as many people as possible. We won't get a better USHPA until a majority of pilots recognize the corruption in that organization.

And speaking of corruption, USHPA has failed to renew the Torrey Hawks chapter status for 2016. We've been a USHPA chapter every year since 2007, but USHPA just refused to renew us this year with no reason being given. Ken Andrews told us (on this forum) that he expected us to be renewed without any further problems ... but it didn't happen and Ken has not stood up for our chapter.

This is important right now because the Torrey proposal window ran from July through November21st. I was hoping to propose club management at Torrey (as you have at Sylmar), but USHPA's failure to renew our club left us unable to promise site insurance through the Torrey Hawks. I am very dissappointed that Ken has sat by and allowed that to happen on his watch.

USHPA's refusal to renew the Torrey Hawks for political motives sets a new low in the history of hang gliding. As much as I like Ken, I am very dissappointed that he has allowed this to happen.
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AlC



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Bob, Bob, Bob Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob, Bob, Bob:

There you go again, the credibility gap continues to widen....

I told you I wouldn't take new questions as you still hadn't admitted your initial theory (in this very same thread) was wrong. That after two of two of the key points were demonstrated to be incorrect. When the facts don't fit...

Then you state "USHPA just refused to renew us this year with no reason being given". But reason was given and it was all around how the Hawks membership was manipulated to tell USHPA it met the 70% requirement when it really didn't. In fact, you explain at some length what the problem is, and why you disagree with the policy, in this post http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5305&start=20 Amazing how you argue against a reason you claim never to have received.

And, now you claim that "I was hoping to propose club management at Torrey" after stating elsewhere that "I've decided that I will not be participating as a principle in any proposals. Instead, I will be doing my best to help those proposal teams who offer better management than we've seen so far".

Bob, Bob, Bob....
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Bob, Bob, Bob Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OK, Alan, I'll call your bluff again.

Quote for us the exact reason USHPA gave for not renewing the Torrey Hawks. Contact Mark Forbes or Martin or anyone at USHPA and ask for a copy of the exact message where they told us what USHPA bylaw or SOP we violated.

The fact is that they wouldn't give us a reason or we'd have corrected it instantly. But don't take my word for it, go get the proof from the source.

We'll be waiting ...


AlC wrote:
Bob, Bob, Bob:

There you go again, the credibility gap continues to widen....

I told you I wouldn't take new questions as you still hadn't admitted your initial theory (in this very same thread) was wrong. That after two of two of the key points were demonstrated to be incorrect. When the facts don't fit...

Then you state "USHPA just refused to renew us this year with no reason being given". But reason was given and it was all around how the Hawks membership was manipulated to tell USHPA it met the 70% requirement when it really didn't. In fact, you explain at some length what the problem is, and why you disagree with the policy, in this post http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5305&start=20 Amazing how you argue against a reason you claim never to have received.

And, now you claim that "I was hoping to propose club management at Torrey" after stating elsewhere that "I've decided that I will not be participating as a principle in any proposals. Instead, I will be doing my best to help those proposal teams who offer better management than we've seen so far".

Bob, Bob, Bob....

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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Bob, Bob, Bob Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

By the way, I went back and read the topic you mentioned, and I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

You will find that I was answering the questions that Ken Andrews was asking. Ken's questions about our club were NOT given as reasons why USHPA would refuse to renew the Torrey Hawks. They were asked as clarification for his information. USHPA never gave us a reason. They just failed to renew us.

For your information, here's what a reason would look like:

Quote:
Torrey Hawks President McMahon,

USHPA has reviewed your club's 2016 renewal paperwork and we have found that your club is not in compliance with SOP ...

Please contact us as soon as you've corrected this problem so we can complete your 2016 renewal as soon as possible.


I'm calling your bluff again Alan. Show us that letter.

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
OK, Alan, I'll call your bluff again.

Quote for us the exact reason USHPA gave for not renewing the Torrey Hawks. Contact Mark Forbes or Martin or anyone at USHPA and ask for a copy of the exact message where they told us what USHPA bylaw or SOP we violated.

The fact is that they wouldn't give us a reason or we'd have corrected it instantly. But don't take my word for it, go get the proof from the source.

We'll be waiting ...


AlC wrote:
Bob, Bob, Bob:

There you go again, the credibility gap continues to widen....

I told you I wouldn't take new questions as you still hadn't admitted your initial theory (in this very same thread) was wrong. That after two of two of the key points were demonstrated to be incorrect. When the facts don't fit...

Then you state "USHPA just refused to renew us this year with no reason being given". But reason was given and it was all around how the Hawks membership was manipulated to tell USHPA it met the 70% requirement when it really didn't. In fact, you explain at some length what the problem is, and why you disagree with the policy, in this post http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5305&start=20 Amazing how you argue against a reason you claim never to have received.

And, now you claim that "I was hoping to propose club management at Torrey" after stating elsewhere that "I've decided that I will not be participating as a principle in any proposals. Instead, I will be doing my best to help those proposal teams who offer better management than we've seen so far".

Bob, Bob, Bob....

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AlC



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Bob, Bob, Bob Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob, Bob, Bob:

I see what you did there... First you claim not to know the reason for USHPA not renewing the Hawks, then when you were caught arguing against the reason, you demanded proof of a letter. Nice bait and switch.

But, once again it only widens the gap in your credibility. Not only do you defend the reason in another thread on this site, but also Brian (he's the Hawks President, isn't he) actually published the e-mails from USHPA in another forum (http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48665&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

So let's see, you know the reason, and you have the e-mail responses from USHPA. Seems a pretty different picture from your claim "USHPA just refused to renew us this year with no reason being given".

Bob, Bob, Bob...
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Bob Kuczewski



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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
OK, Alan, I'll call your bluff again. Quote for us the exact reason USHPA gave for not renewing the Torrey Hawks. Contact Mark Forbes or Martin or anyone at USHPA and ask for a copy of the exact message where they told us what USHPA bylaw or SOP we violated. 


AlC wrote:
Brian (he's the Hawks President, isn't he) actually published the e-mails from USHPA in another forum (http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48665&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).


Well that should make it particularly easy for you to just copy and paste USHPA's full official reason right here. Go ahead and share the reason why a 9 year USHPA chapter was not renewed in 2016. Then we can get back to the questions you've been dodging since page 1 of this topic.
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 518
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Bob, Bob, Bob Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

AlC wrote:
you claim not to know the reason for USHPA not renewing the Hawks

Actually we all know the real reasons USHPA hasn't renewed the Hawks:

- Retaliation
- To protect their cronies at Torrey
- To kill a club dedicated to hang gliding

But none of those reasons are listed in USHPA's bylaws or Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs), and that's why you won't be able to find a legitimate reason to post here. But let's see what you come up with. Just copy and paste the reason you claim to have found on the Oz forum, and we'll see if it passes the smell test.
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's been two months since this topic was started. Can anyone point to any of Alan Crouse's many posts where he answered any of these questions?

Quote:
Alan Crouse:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey? 

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked or suspended (whether by USHPA or "internally")? 

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption? 

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including magazine advertisements). 

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers? 


Anyone?
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