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USHPA pulls Torrey Exemption: The story behind the headlines
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 508
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:17 pm    Post subject: USHPA pulls Torrey Exemption: The story behind the headlines Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

USHPA pulls Torrey Exemption: The story behind the headlines

Someone was kind enough to send me some of the misinformation that's being posted behind the "Oz Curtain". It appears that there's all kinds of speculation about USHPA actually stepping up to do the right thing at Torrey. Let me set the record straight.

First off, if USHPA were suddenly "seeing the light" as to what's been going on at Torrey, they would start by apologizing to me - or at least silently renewing my membership and the Torrey Hawks chapter status. They haven't done either of those things and I don't expect they will. Their actions betray their words.

So what's really going on then? Why is USHPA suddenly taking such a public shot at Air California Adventure (ACA)?

The answer is simple and ugly: retaliation. The following sequence of events will make that clear:


  1. USHPA has known about ACA's violations at Torrey for at least 10 years. Yet they backed ACA for all those years.
  2. Region 3 Director Kuczewski reported violations to USHPA's Safety and Training and USHPA's EC as far back as 2010.
  3. USHPA didn't care and did nothing as long as Air California was paying them. For all those years USHPA backed ACA.
  4. But USHPA could not ignore the 2011 tandem violations by Brad Geary and Max Marien which went public (on video) in 2015.
  5. USHPA had no choice but remove the tandem ratings of Geary and Marien or the FAA might have revoked USHPA's exemption.
  6. Even then, USHPA still didn't pull the plug on Robin Marien or ACA, and it was business as usual. More money for U$HPA.
  7. But ACA went out and found another exemption so Max Marien (Robin's son) could continue to give tandem joy rides.
  8. That's when ACA stopped sending their joy ride money to USHPA. That's when U$HPA got mad.
  9. It wasn't until ACA stopped sending money to USHPA that USHPA fired their parting shot in the letter we all saw.


So USHPA didn't step in to fix a problem. They stepped in to retaliate against Air California Adventure because USHPA wasn't getting a cut of their joy ride money any more. That's what USHPA does. They don't fix problems, but they retaliate against anyone who they don't like at the moment. Last year it was me. This year it's Air California Adventure.

The sport of hang gliding deserves better ... both locally and nationally.
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AlC



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject: Just the facts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Let's see, USHPA makes $2 from a 30 day membership issued by a PASA school. That probably just covers the handling cost.

Sorry, facts don't fit the theory. Perhaps USHPA just needed to put some space between itself and an organization that was working outside its regulation. You know, exactly like Mark Forbes states:

"mgforbes

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:40 pm    Post subject:
#65   

ACA doesn't hold a tandem appointment, but individual instructors do. At present, we have chosen not to take action against individual instructors working for ACA, either as employees or contractors.

If they're following the rules elsewhere, making sure their students are signed up as USHPA members, not flying commercially at insured sites without commercial coverage for that landowner and so on, then there's no problem. If they're violating the rules elsewhere, then we'll have to deal with that on an individual basis.

Since ACA has said that they don't want to operate according to our exemption, we've stated that tandem instructors working on their behalf are NOT authorized to use our exemption when flying. They might be using someone else's exemption, like ASC's, and if those tandem instructors are also ASC basic flight instructors and compliant with the ASC exemption terms, then they're legal in FAA's eyes.


Torrey is not a USHPA-insured site, so whatever their management wants to do is no concern of ours, so long as they're not doing things that put our association at risk."

- Alan
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Just the facts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

AlC wrote:
Just the facts


First off, quoting spin-master Mark Forbes in a post titled "Just the facts" is a contradiction in itself.

But let's ignore that and get to some real facts. OK?

1. How long have you personally known of the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession.

Facts are great ... when we can get them.
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ooops, I forgot a very important one.

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?

Thanks in advance.
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Just the facts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While we're waiting for Alan to answer 5 easy questions (I'll bet it's a long wait), I'd like to address his opening statement:

AlC wrote:
Let's see, USHPA makes $2 from a 30 day membership issued by a PASA school. That probably just covers the handling cost.

Sorry, facts don't fit the theory.


I've just spoken to a long time tandem instructor and he tells me he pays USHPA $5 per 30-day temporary membership. He says it's been that price for a number of years now.

I estimate that Torrey conducts 3,000 tandems a year (maybe more). At $5 each, that's $15,000 a year ... just for 30 day memberships.

Look at the magazine every month and count the number of students that go through the Torrey PG mill each month. They are all full USHPA members producing a lifetime stream of income for USHPA. Air California Adventure has been cranking them out like that since 1998.

And don't forget that every Torrey instructor is paying USHPA the instructor rate for membership, insurance, etc.

Compare that income stream with what USHPA gets from Sylmar and you'll understand why the Torrey tail has been wagging the USHPA dog for the last couple of decades.

But that's just an aside. Let's see what Alan comes up with in response the 5 questions I've asked. I'm guessing he'll dodge them, but maybe he'll prove me wrong.
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dhmartens



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Will PASA renew the tandem instructors certification?
http://www.pasaschools.org/hang-gliding-paragliding/safety-guidelines/


One thing that has changed is the love triangle of the RRG/PASA/USHPA.
Under the federal and Vermont and California guidelines/rules we are now over seen by "Actuarial Scientists". These "Actuarial Scientists" are actually like single minded Schwarzenegger terminator robots and all they care about are Statistics, Acident Reports, and setting rates. If you get in their way you can see what will happen to you.
"It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until (you fill out the accident report)"
I imagine USHPA could sue to get the accident report as breach of contract.

Link


As a side conspiracy theory:
What if ACA is involved in an insurance scam?
Didn't anyone see the 1998 movie Wild Things? Bill Murray as the personal injury attorney.


The whole case a fraud contrived to get the $2 million trust fund.

Age-restricted video (based on Community Guidelines)
http://youtu.be/KSKf2b9fBBY?t=50m52s
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dhmartens wrote:
If you get in their way you can see what will happen to you.
"It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until (you fill out the accident report)"
I imagine USHPA could sue to get the accident report as breach of contract.


USHPA hasn't wanted the accident reports. USHPA has wanted what is known as "plausible deniability" for the violations at Torrey.

That's why I've asked Alan if he has known of the tandem violations at Torrey. You can bet that he has had either direct knowledge or a reasonable suspicion for a long long time (probably from before the time that he became a Region 3 Director). It's ridiculous for USHPA to try to pretend that they just ("oh my!") discovered that there have been tandem violations (and all kinds of other violations) at Torrey for decades. Does anyone really believe that?

As I mentioned earlier, if this were a new revelation to USHPA, then their immediate response should be "Oh my god, we were wrong about Torrey, and we expelled an innocent man who tried to warn us, let's fix it". Has anyone heard anything like that from USHPA? If so, please let me know ... 858-204-7499 ... call day or night!!
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AlC



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: More facts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob:

I'll set you straight again on the 30 day waivers:
- They had been $5 for many years, then they went to $8 last year as part of the increases needed to cover insurance costs;
- On Aug 9 they were reduced to $6 retroactively to December 1, 2015;
- In addition, PASA schools receive a $4 rebate when they turn in the student part of the waiver... Net $2.

- Alan
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PASA is now effectively part of USHPA ... or vice versa. So don't play games with who's wearing which hat today. There's $6 per tandem going into the USHPA/PASA pockets. And you still haven't included any of the other income that I've mentioned (I'm not surprised).

I've asked 5 pretty simple questions and I've predicted you will dodge them:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession.

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?

Care to share the facts on those?
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AlC



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Please read the facts Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob:

The $4 rebate goes back to the PASA school which initially bought the 30 day membership for $6.

There are no 'hats'. Net cost to the person paying the money is $2.

- Alan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've asked 5 pretty simple questions and I've predicted you will dodge them:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession.

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: Waiting on Alan ... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While we're waiting for Alan to come up with his next diversion, let's talk about money and Air California Adventure (ACA).

We all know that there's generally very little money in our sport. Anyone trying to make a living giving tandems at Sylmar faces a several hour ordeal per flight, and an extremely difficult time finding customers in the first place.

At Torrey, customers walk up all day long. Every spectator is a potential customer, and they walk in and out all day long. And rather than spending hours driving up the back of Kagel, setting up, breaking down, loading and unloading, they just top land and ask who's next. Many tandem pilots don't even get out of their harness between flights.

The money flowing through Air California Adventure at Torrey is enormous. It distorts everything it touches ... particularly USHPA. My 4th question for Alan states:

Quote:
4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession.

In the time it's taken Alan to respond, I've already realized that I've left out the advertisements that ACA takes out in the magazine every month. I've probably left out a bunch of other things as well.

As I've stated many times, that kind of money is the tail that wags the dog in our tiny sport. USHPA has bowed to that money and my expulsion is just one example. USHPA's refusal to grant the Torrey Hawks site insurance (after we paid cash) is another example. USHPA's refusal to renew the Torrey Hawks is another example. USHPA's refusal to implement the 2010 resolution to increase our pilot representation at Torrey (on the Soaring Council) is another example.

Alan can try to divert the discussion as much as he wants, but there's no doubt that Torrey is the 500 pound gorilla at USHPA, and USHPA has given them a pass for decades.

That brings me back to trying to pry the supporting evidence out of Alan.

Alan ...

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees,, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including advertisements).

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?
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AlC



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:51 pm    Post subject: Where's Bob's Post? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob:

So where is the 'sorry I was wrong' post?

I (and probably everyone else) would love to see the post from you that apologizes for ascribing a monetary motive to USHPA's recent actions.

Perhaps something simple:

"USPHA, I was wrong. We've had disagreements in the past, but this time you are doing the right thing for the right reason. I'm sorry to have let past differences color my thinking. Keep up the good work.

Bob K"

Nah, it'll never happen....

- Alan
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Where's Bob's Post? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob wrote:
While we're waiting for Alan to come up with his next diversion,


AlC wrote:
Bob:

So where is the 'sorry I was wrong' post?


You haven't proven anyone wrong. In fact, you haven't even answered the questions that would form the basis for proving anyone wrong.

Take this one, for example:

Quote:
4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees,, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including advertisements).


Why are you so evasive Alan? Are you afraid that you might be on the hot seat for ignoring what you knew were blatant violations of the FAA exemption ... in your region ... while you were Regional Director?

As you can imagine, I've been getting a lot of phone calls and emails in these past few days. They generally follow this theme:

Quote:
"Hey Bob, glad to hear that you've been vindicated. It looks like you were right about what's been going on at Torrey all along. I can't wait until USHPA has to eat crow and reinstate you. I look forward to flying with you again."


Of course, they don't know USHPA like I know USHPA. And they don't know you, Alan, like I have come to know you. But if they read your request for an apology, they'll come a little bit closer.


Alan Crouse:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including magazine advertisements).

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?


You can attack me all you want, but those questions will follow you like a tail until you answer them.
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For everyone else ...

If you've been paying attention, you'll recognize that Alan won't answer the questions because his answers would either be provable lies or they would make it clear that USHPA has known about the Torrey tandem violations for years (maybe as far back as Jebb's initial takeover in 1998).

Alan doesn't want to get caught in a provable lie. But he also doesn't want to answer those incriminating questions. So he dodges and evades and asks ridiculous questions.

Alan was director when USHPA broadcast a pack of lies about me and conducted a kangaroo court to expel me without quoting a single USHPA SOP or a single USHPA bylaw that I had violated. Alan abstained from that vote, but he didn't have the courage to speak up against the injustice. That must be a terrible weight of guilt on him, and now he has to find some way to justify his own injustice to a fellow pilot.

USHPA has clearly known - for a long time - that ACA is dirty. Yet they accepted as gospel the lies told by ACA to support my expulsion. I haven't been able to fly at Torrey or Crestline or Funston or ... Sylmar for 2 years now because of USHPA's kangaroo court. Alan has to sleep with that every night ... and I suspect it isn't very comfortable for him.
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AlC



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: Wow Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So Bob starts out with one assertion (see first post) and when that is demonstrated to be incorrect he moves on to an entirely different set of questions without even acknowledging his initial error.

Then, (and this is the part that is truly amazing) he accuses the respondent (me in this case) of changing the topic as a diversion.

This is one reason Bob has so little credibility; it's all laid out in this string of posts. Start with one unfounded accusation, when proven wrong, move on quickly and attack the other party. Sorry Bob. Spin it any way you want. You were entirely and provably wrong in your assertions that started the topic.

- Alan
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Bob Kuczewski



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

AlC wrote:
Sorry Bob. Spin it any way you want. You were entirely and provably wrong in your assertions that started the topic.
- Alan

You haven't proven any such thing. To prove that USHPA does not have (or at least has had) a monetary interest in preserving the status quo at Torrey, you would have to answer this question:

Quote:
4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including magazine advertisements).

You haven't answered that pivotal question and yet you prance around declaring victory just the same. Your "proof" is as weak as the "proof" that I "interfered with instruction at Torrey" ... in other words, no proof at all. Answer that question and let everyone decide for themselves if USHPA has had a monetary interest in keeping the concession in business. Put up or ... well you know the rest.

AlC wrote:
So Bob starts out with one assertion (see first post) and when that is demonstrated to be incorrect he moves on to an entirely different set of questions without even acknowledging his initial error.

Nothing in that "first post" was demonstrated to be incorrect. In fact, let's take a look at that first post again statement by statement.

The first statement is this:

1. USHPA has known about ACA's violations at Torrey for at least 10 years. Yet they backed ACA for all those years.

Is that true or false Alan? That statement is properly reflected in my subsequent question directed at you (which you haven't answered yet ... as I predicted). Here's that question:

Alan Crouse, how long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

I'll bet you've known for a long time. Why won't you tell us what you knew and when you knew it?

Here's my second statement from the first post:

2. Region 3 Director Kuczewski reported violations to USHPA's Safety and Training and USHPA's EC as far back as 2010.

We know that's clearly true. I've produced the actual email sent to Safety and Training. Do you dispute it?

Here's the third statement from my first post:

3. USHPA didn't care and did nothing as long as Air California was paying them. For all those years USHPA backed ACA.

Do you dispute that? I don't think any HG pilot in the free world can disupute that. Do you?

Here's the fourth statement from my original post:

4. But USHPA could not ignore the 2011 tandem violations by Brad Geary and Max Marien which went public (on video) in 2015.

Do you dispute that? Have you seen the video? When do you think USHPA saw the video? I know I got a copy several years ago. Surely USHPA would have had it through normal discovery. They certainly had it when they expelled me because I showed it to them. Yet they did nothing to Air California Adventure in all that time. How do you explain that? That's why I asked question #5 which you've dodged:

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?

I'll bet they've known for a long time through Tim Herr. But nothing was done about it. You won't answer that one Alan.

Here's the fifth statement from my original post:

5. USHPA had no choice but remove the tandem ratings of Geary and Marien or the FAA might have revoked USHPA's exemption.

That seems pretty obvious. It's interesting that they levied a much more severe penalty on Brad Geary than on Robin Marien's son Max ... even though Max was the one bumping into Geary from behind. How do you explain that Alan? Do you dispute that USHPA had no choice but to take action against Geary and Marien?

Here's my 6th statement from my first post:

6. Even then, USHPA still didn't pull the plug on Robin Marien or ACA, and it was business as usual. More money for U$HPA.

Do you dispute that Alan? When USHPA saw that video (and you still haven't told us when that was), they should have immediately pulled all ratings and instructed Ken Baier (remember Ken who represents USHPA on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council?) to do whatever he could to ensure greater oversight of that operation. Did any of that happen? I'll answer for you ("NO") since you don't seem too keen on actually answering questions.

Here's my seventh statement:

7. But ACA went out and found another exemption so Max Marien (Robin's son) could continue to give tandem joy rides.

Do you dispute that? It seems quite obvious to me (and to Ken Andrews) that Max had his tandem ticket pulled by USHPA, but I had pictures of him giving tandem joy rides with children very recently.

Here's my eighth statement:

8. That's when ACA stopped sending their joy ride money to USHPA. That's when U$HPA got mad.

Maybe this is the one you dispute? Did ACA stop sending their joy ride money to USHPA when they got their other tandem exemption? Come on Alan, this is an easy one. Of course they did. And did that happen to coincide (over the span of the decades this has been going on) with USHPA pulling their tandem ticket? It seems pretty obvious that the answer is yes. Do you dispute it?

That brings us to my ninth and final statement from that first post:

9. It wasn't until ACA stopped sending money to USHPA that USHPA fired their parting shot in the letter we all saw.

That is certainly true. Read it slowly: ... It ... wasn't ... until ... ACA ... stopped ... sending ... money ... to ... USHPA ... that ... USHPA ... fired ... their ... parting ... shot ... in ... the ... letter ... we ... all ... saw.

I believe that is absolutely true. Do you disagree?

Alan, you have the audacity to conclude with this:

Alan wrote:
Then, (and this is the part that is truly amazing) he accuses the respondent (me in this case) of changing the topic as a diversion.

This is one reason Bob has so little credibility; it's all laid out in this string of posts. Start with one unfounded accusation, when proven wrong, move on quickly and attack the other party. Sorry Bob. Spin it any way you want. You were entirely and provably wrong in your assertions that started the topic.

- Alan

Alan, you will find ... when you leave the small circle of USHPA's echo chamber ... that I enjoy a fairly high degree of credibility among people who actually know me and who actually know what's going on. Yet you make a statement like: "This is one reason Bob has so little credibility" as if it were true ... when it isn't.

Furthermore, I have not been "entirely and provably wrong" in my assertions that started this topic. In fact, as people read this, I believe they'll wonder why you haven't answered the 5 questions that I've asked. Just to be clear, I'll ask them again:

1. How long have you personally known of (or suspected) the tandem exemption violations at Torrey?

2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

3. What was the exact date that Torrey applied for their alternate exemption?

4. What is the total income that USHPA has gotten through Torrey Pines over the last 10 years? Please include tandem fees, ongoing memberships from students trained at Torrey, instructor fees, and all other income that USHPA gets either directly or indirectly through the Torrey concession (including magazine advertisements).

5. What was the exact date that USHPA (including USHPA's lawyer) first became aware of the July 2011 tandem video showing Brad Geary and Max Marien bumping their paragliders into each other while both were carrying child passengers?


Care to answer any of my questions?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hey, Jonathan! We should partner up. Together, our wittiness could, reputedly, decimate the sport of hang gliding. Let's bring those suckers to their knees! Maybe we should start attending local government meetings to publicly point out everything that's wrong with our sport, you know, become annoying gadflies for the sake of misguided anger. We could videotape everything that goes on at our sites and edit for the most disparaging moments to post for public posting. Then we could scan for litigation and testify against those 'scofflaw' pilots, win some real money for the plaintiffs to empty the insurance coffers. Yeah, we can do this! Wait, first, let's be so disruptive to our sport and clubs that they have no choice but to dump us. We can start by forming our own club to compete. I hear that if we manipulate the membership numbers enough we could even be sanctioned by the group we're trying to bring down... until they figure it out and kick our club out, too.

I'm in Jonathan. Let's get started!
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brianscharp



Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bob Kuczewski wrote:
2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

Why do you think it was? Did he break an established rule?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=392455#392455
mgforbes wrote:
Both Max and Robin are current USHPA tandem instructors.
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Bob Kuczewski



Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 508
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: Answering Mark Forbes Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

brianscharp wrote:
Bob Kuczewski wrote:
2. What was the exact date that Max Marien's tandem rating was revoked?

Why do you think it was? Did he break an established rule?

As you can imagine, USHPA doesn't share their reasons for doing anything with me. But in my opinion, the actions on that one video (how many more times did this happen without a court proceeding to get the video?) show a reckless disregard for the safety of two children by what should be USHPA's most responsible pilots.

brianscharp wrote:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=392455#392455
mgforbes wrote:
Both Max and Robin are current USHPA tandem instructors.

Thanks for directing me to that topic!! Mark Forbes is displaying his ability to dodge some pretty simple and important questions there. For those who don't read that forum, on hanggliding.org flysurfski posted this quote:

flysurfski wrote:
Quote:
In light of the Hamby video, USHPA had no choice but to pull Max Marien's tandem rating.

Robin Marien (Torrey concessionaire) certainly didn't like seeing his son Max on the sidelines and so he purchased tandem exemptions through AeroSports.

USHPA has viewed their tandem exemption as their own little monopoly, and they're furious about Robin Marien going around them.

So while USHPA had known of Torrey's non-FAA-compliant tandem operations for over a decade (who sold Marien all those U$HPA 30 day memberships for all those years?), they only decided to drop the hammer when Robin Marien snubbed his nose at USHPA's monopoly.

Mark Forbes (aka mgforbes / MGF) quoted that section and replied with this:

Mark Forbes wrote:
I don't know who's spinning these fake stories, but this is false.

What is "false"? ... What part is false Mark?

Is it false that USHPA pulled Max Marien's rating after discovering the Hamby video? Was his rating ever pulled or reduced subsequent to that event or not? If so, what was the reason? And if not ... why not???

If Max Marien's rating was pulled, is it false that his father Robin Marien certainly didn't like it? Is it false that Robin Marien purchased tandem exemptions through AeroSports? How does the timing of those two events correlate?

Is it false that USHPA was furious about Robin Marien using an alternate tandem exemption (getting around USHPA's long held tandem monopoly)?

Is it false that USHPA has known of the tandem violations at Torrey for a long time? How many USHPA Directors have visited Torrey Pines in the last decade? Didn't any of them notice the thriving tandem joy ride business on open display there? If USHPA didn't know about this for 10 years, isn't that an indictment of USHPA's own incompetence?

Mark Forbes concludes with this:

Mark Forbes wrote:
Both Max and Robin are current USHPA tandem instructors.

That's straight out of Clinton's "what the meaning of 'is' is" speech. The question isn't whether they ARE current USHPA tandem instructors. The question is: Did USHPA pull Max Marien's tandem rating due to the Hamby video and did that motivate Robin Marien to get his tandem exemptions from AeroSports? Mark Forbes never refuted any of the individual facts, yet he just comes out and says it's "false" (in the safety and comfort of "Jack's living room").

This is one of the best insights into the sneaky and deceptive nature of "mgforbes" that I've seen in a public forum (I've seen much worse in person). For reference, here's the full post where you'll see him artfully dodging all of the key issues in this important matter:

mgforbes wrote:

Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 822
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote #20


I don't know who's spinning these fake stories, but this is false.

ACA has stated that they no longer intend to sign up students as USHPA 30-day members. It is required that they do so to use the USHPA tandem exemption, according to the terms laid out by FAA. They are not authorized to use our exemption unless they comply with its terms. At present they choose not to, so we have notified them and the membership generally that they are not authorized to use our exemption. Is that clear enough for you?

ASC also has an exemption. It does not require membership in ASC. If ACA chooses to operate under that exemption's terms, then that's their prerogative. They are not insured by us, and they have some insurance/bond arrangement with their landowner. We have not determined how we may handle these sorts of situation moving forward. That will be a topic of discussion at the BOD meeting later this month.

Both Max and Robin are current USHPA tandem instructors.

MGF

Notice how Mark Forbes (usually the stickler for details) never addressed any of the individual statements that he claims are "false". This is why USHPA has lost its insurance and its good will with many of its members.
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