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KEN'S LIST: THE FIRST 15
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JT
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: KEN'S LIST: THE FIRST 15 Reply with quote

1. Develop gazebo plan, build new gazebo
--> IN PROGRESS... MAYBE

2. Put oil on blacktop driveway to preserve it
--> WILL THE CLUB REIMBURSE FOR MATERIAL AND SQUEEGEES TO SPREAD? CHEAP STUFF IS ~$20/5GAL BEST STUFF IS ~$50/5GAL.
I WILL CALCULATE SQUARE FOOTAGE, PURCHASE AND ROUND UP VOLUNTEERS - MUST BE A NON-FLYABLE WEEKEND TO LET SURFACE DRY AND ERWIN WILL NEED TO PARK OUTSIDE FOR A DAY. ALSO NEED REFLECTIVE PAINT FOR LINES, BUMP.

3. Replace oleanders
--> KATE AND KATHERINE HAVE THIS UNDER CONTROL, RIGHT?

4. Fix irrigation system for oleanders
--> SEE ABOVE.

5. Choose and plant shade trees among oleanders
--> NOT USEFUL ACCORDING TO GEORGE. AT LEAST NOT UNTIL THE TREES ARE HUGE AND THEN THEY'D SHADE KATE AND KATHERINE'S WORK. SOMEONE ELSE CAN TAKE THIS UP.

6. Replace chain-link fence on gate
--> MINIMAL COST. IF REIMBURSED, I'LL BUY THE FENCING (YOU HAVE TO BUY THE WHOLE ROLL) AND GET HELP TO INSTALL.

7. Build and install a nice looking "Sylmar Flight Park" sign at end of Gridley
--> PLASTIC, WOOD OR STONE? IF WOOD, PAINTED, I'LL TWIST RICK "USTA-FLY" HOLMAN'S ARM TO ROUT OUT SOMETHING NICE IN REDWOOD. CLUB BUYS MATERIALS, RIGHT?

8. Figure out how to make our lawn actually grow
--> SEE #s 9 AND 11.

9. Fertilize lawn every spring and fall
--> REIMBURSEMENT FOR MANURE AND A SPREADER RENTAL. I'LL GET ROB TO DONATE TRUCK AND EVERYONE CAN HAVE A HAND AT PUSHING THE SPREADER. SHOULD HAPPEN NOW WITH RAINS. STINKY LZ FOR A WEEK. ROB AND I PLAN TO FLY FOREVER SO WE'LL BE HERE TO OVERSEE THIS YEAR TO YEAR. JUST REMIND US.

10. Spread truckloads of compost once per year
--> ROME'S BABY.

11. Fix the broken sprinklers, and maintain them.
--> KEN: YOUR TURN TO GET TWISTED. AND LET'S BUY SOME HOSE AT COSTCO TO HIT THE SPOTS THE SPRINKLERS MISS. <75> HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO SPEND? THE POTS WILL NEED TO BE BIG TO HOLD SHRUBS HIGH ENOUGH TO HIDE THE RV AND NOT BE BLOWN OVER BY SANTA ANAS - HOLLYWOOD JUNIPERS? TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT AND HOW MUCH TO SPEND. AND SEE "HOSES" IN #11.

13. Install sink-type faucet near the hose for hand washing, water bottle filling.
--> NEED A SINK BASE CABINET - I THINK I STILL HAVE AN OLD STAINLESS DOUBLE KITCHEN SINK HIDDEN UNDER THE LEAVES IN MY BACKYARD or WE COULD BY A CHEAP UTILITY SINK WITH LEGS (AS FOR A WASHING MACHINE DRAIN) AND HOOK UP A FIXTURE. <$150.
LET ME KNOW.

14. Fix mister that's falling down, improve associated plumbing
-->WAIT UNTIL THE GAZEBO IS BUILT THIS SUMMER.

15. Clean up tool storage area
--> ~$100 FOR TWO RUBBERMAID ORGANIZERS. DOES THE CLUB HAVE THE MONEY FOR THAT? IF, YES, JUST LET ME KNOW.

After I hear from the BOD (don't hold your breath) I'll ask for volunteers.
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Chip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Nice! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And Ken didn't want me to post it ................. Sad

How does anyone expect anything to be accomplished? Rolling Eyes

I'm working on the Gazebo drawings (proposal)
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JT
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Chip.

If you think it's appropriate and can manage to add this list to the agenda for the meeting 2/8, maybe the BOD (you, included) could decide if these are the most important items and give us all a sign (halelujah!) about which to pursue, with funding, now.

Only if they want something done, of course.
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stebbins



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Location: Palmdale, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Item 5 (Trees): I didn't say it wasn't useful to put trees along the fence line!!! I only said that high bushes might do a better job of screening & give some shade. If we can put in trees for shade and low bushes for screening, that's good. As long as they will grow together without interfering with each other.
If you care, see my posts at: http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=324

Item 6 (Gate): It is my opinion that the gate structure needs work too. I might be wrong, but it should be looked at before slapping some new chain-link on it. If the gate structure is fine, then let's "Just Do It".

Items 8, 9, 10 & 11 (Grass): When I was president, I asked an old friend who is a landscape guru to check out the lawn. His opinion was that unless we wanted to spend 20-30 thousand dollars to fix the lawn (or maybe more) then the best we could do was to add more dirt an inch at a time. He suggested that every few months we put down an inch of dirt/manure/compost, then let the grass grow through it. Then do it again. The problem is that we have virtually no soil. Long story about why, and I'm willing to talk about it, but not in this post. He was adamant that increasing the watering wouldn't solve the problem, and would cost a bundle. He did suggest that the wattering pattern was not very good, so we could fix that some maybe. Also, he said there was a possibility that we were deficient in something in the soil in addition to having almost none of it. I notice that the "H4 spot" stays green. Is that because it is the only spot with both decomposed wood-chips and water? Or is it because of the "chalk" that we spread there every year for the Dahlsten Cup? A simple experiment with chalk in a strategic location could tell us. Just spread a bit of the chalk we already have over some spot on the lawn that gets watered, and wait a couple of months. If it works, then we do the whole lawn. Either way, we need more soil. This is a long-term project unless we wish to spend large amounts of money. I commend those who are willing to take this task on. (We also have a mixture of lots of different types of grass, but if we had good soil that wouldn't be as much of a problem.) One further comment: If we ever decide to put grass on the slope runway, we MUST put soil there first or we are asking for the same problem we have elsewhere.

Item 13 (Sink): I think this is a good idea, but we need to drain it somewhere. Once we have the sink, the usage will likely increase and we have nowhere for the water to go. Ideas anyone? (If we run pipe, it might be easier if we do it before we put a slab under the gazebo, or at least at the same time...)

My additional comment: Please stop giving the BOD a hard time. They've only been in office 31 days! That is one tough job -- I know. They are doing the best they can, and taking time out from flying and their lives to do it. By all means ask them for what you want, let them know what you think should be done. That's great! But be nice about it, stop the snide comments and remember that they are volunteers, not paid staff. I've been flying at Kagel since before there was a club, and I can say with confidence that the last few BODs have been better than most. We got Towers Launch during Forest CLosure, yes? We are about to get Lukens launch opened (unless something odd happens), yes? The bills get paid, they are listening to the membership about the Gazebo (and lots of other things). Remember that there are lots of items on their plates besides just the ones you are personally interested in. They have to do a lot of stuff that is just boring but necessary. Ok. End of soap box.

Let's get some of this done, and go flying!
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JT
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okeedokee George.

1) I admit that, looking at your posting I was confused. Read what you wrote; you will be confused, too.

"Shade from trees on the fenceline will cover cars in the late afternoon. Isn't that the time of day when it matters most? Isn't that when we actually get into our cars? Who cares about shade at noon? I'm going up the mountain then!

My suggestion is some trees (or bushes) that are high enough to give late afternoon sun, but not high enough to block the view of the mountains. My recollection (I'm not in the LZ right now) is that the existing trees block the view of the Western portion of the mountains anyway. One must get up, walk to an appropriate spot (usually the parking lot) and look."

So did you want trees or not?

2) I was just going by Ken's list. Structurally, the gate still works; it would just look nicer with new cosmetics and the leftovers might be used to fix the portion that doesn't belong to us but was reputedly cut down by a club member for easy access, remember?

3) Dirt is dirt and grass is grass. We're not talking about growing Kentucky blue-fescue or laying sod down. As I mentioned at the last BOD meeting, you could read Jose's proposal to Cludy for months after the flour washed away. Fertilizer will help the jumble of crabgrass, weeds and even the stuff you tried to start last year, grow greener. And whatever grows and is cut helps to build soil. You could help by bringing some worms.

4) You're absolutely right; I forgot about drainage and that we don't have a sewer connection. Gray water systems are illegal in L.A. I'll have to think about this.

5) A little sensitive on the BOD jibe, huh? First, you know personally that I have defended, thanked and congratulated the members since I joined this club. Including and, especially, you. And pretty much the same members, off and on. You also know that I've been to the meetings and watched the waste of time endlessly rehashing things-to-do lists. And lamenting the lack of participation and leadership among the membership. Your response was not un-anticipated nor unlike what goes on at the meetings. I am offering them the opportunity to get some things done that really seem important. I don't expect to get return sniping from some one who knows what it is to volunteer his time to try and get something done and you're "preaching to the choir" when you think you're reminding me of their contributions.

Back to the issues that are important, pulleease! Arrow
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Chip
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: My 2 cents Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's been my observation (in the short time I've been with this club) that the BOD feels the need to do almost everything themselves. Neutral

I am a big believer in "if you want things done right, you need to do it yourself". That being said, I think the reason much of the things that need "attention" aren't being addressed because the membership is unaware of how they can help.

It's a big reason why the list was posted. Partly as an experiment to see what type of people would step forward to spearhead some of the tasks.

Certainly there's been some good volunteerism in the club with the road cleanup, fixing the drainage situation and other things. Actually it's these examples that give me hope in the posting of the "project list". All of these examples were managed by the BOD, but I believe some of the items posted are well within the capability of the membership and should be strongly encouraged, with minimal oversight (as long as the tasks are completed)
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Ken Andrews
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: How to do a project Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It seems to me that on most of the 99 projects, the next move belongs not to the board, but to any club member who's got the energy to stop talking and start doing. I think most of the projects could be well solved with the following five steps; unfortunately they always seem to get stuck at step B.

A. Pick a project that you are willing to tackle. Example: I want to clean up the tool storage area.

B. Figure out how to do the project, and do the necessary homework so you can tell the board what they need to know. This naturally includes what it will cost, who will do the work, and approximately when it will be done. Example: I climbed around inside the storage area with a tape measure recently. My proposal is to dispose of the broken filing cabinet and wire rack and replace them with heavy duty shelving 48" wide x 24" deep x 72" high, available from Home Depot for $72.97 plus tax. I'd also work with Erwin to dispose of the push mower that he bought for $10 at a yard sale last year that never worked well, and build a cage for the shovels, that will be about 4 feet wide and one foot deep. It will be bolted together from 1" steel L-bracket material, and all the parts for this will cost about $35. The project will be done sometime in the next few weekends by myself and whatever unlucky pilots I find in the LZ at the time.

C. Present the proposal to the board at a monthly board meeting, or simply discuss it with any board member, who will relay the details to the rest of the board. Example: I'll read the paragraph above at this Thursday's board meeting, and ask them to reimburse up to $140 in expenses when I give receipts to Treasurer Katherine ($72.97 + $35 + 30% margin).

D. The board members will disuss the idea, offer any suggestions they may have, and then vote on the proposal. If the plan is reasonable, then this won't take long, and it is probable that the vote will be unanimously in favor.

E. Now it's time to do the work, confident in the knowledge that expenses will be reimbursed up to the approved budget limit.

Everybody wins in this process: the club member gets to do the project the way he wants to, his costs are covered, the board knows pretty well what it's buying before promising the money, and the board members need only spend a few minutes of their time to cast their votes of approval.

Note that it is NOT the board's responsibility to prioritize the project list, or to pronounce a budget for any particular project in advance, or to kick around ideas in the already-too-long monthly meetings. The board needs only to listen to well-formed proposals and decide in favor or against them. On the other hand, it IS the responsibility of the board to learn about the sentiments of club members, the club's financial status, history, standing in the community, and so on, in order to make the best decisions it can.
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Ken Andrews
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: The first 15 Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Here are a few more details on some of the 15 projects that Jim has picked out.

2. Put oil on blacktop driveway to preserve it

I am confident that when Jim tells the board what the total cost will be, how much time and work will be involved, how much disruption there will be to the neighbors and to our own flying, and why the $50/5gal is better or worse than the $20/5gal stuff, then the board will vote to reimburse his cost for materials and tools.

3, 4, 5. Replace oleanders, plant shade trees

Kate and Katherine have begun on this project; many thanks to them. I think this is still a long way from complete, with several dead oleanders and unfilled gaps remaining. I'm sure they would appreciate a helping hand or ten.

6. Replace chain-link fence on gate

Currently, that gate looks a bit dilapidated. It is taller than the surrounding fence, is bent, and has several large holes torn in the chain-link. My guess is that it was scavenged from some other location and modified for our driveway. My current thinking is to saw off the stubs of pipe sticking up above the top rail, put 1-5/8" post caps on them ($0.59 each, times four), straighten the fence by jumping on it strategically, and put new chain-link fabric on it ($69.48 for a roll 5 feet high by 50 feet long). The new fabric should be mounted on the east side of the frame instead of the west, so it doesn't get bashed up so easily in the future. Jim, if you want coordinate this project, either according to that plan or as you choose, I bet the board would vote to reimburse your costs.

7. Build and install a nice looking "Sylmar Flight Park" sign at end of Gridley

I think it would be appropriate for the club to have a visible and attractive presence in the community. A large sign at the end of Gridley Street could help, if it's clearly not an advertizing billboard, is no higher than the the existing fence at the end of the road, is attractively painted or something, and magically repels graffiti. I have no idea if the right material is wood, stone, metal, or plastic. This project probably needs some thoughtful discussion before we dive into it.

8, 9, 11. Figure out how to make the lawn actually grow

Certainly part of the problem is fertilizer. Dan Barley has fertilized the lawn two or three times in the last couple years, spending a morning each time pushing the spreader himself. Thanks, Dan! Perhaps someone would be willing to work with him to do this again.

Another part of the problem is water. The standard advice is that the lawn must be watered evenly, but this would require about four times as many sprinklers as we've got. Without a major upgrade of our existing system, Rome and I tinker with the sprinklers we have, regularly fixing the ones that break (by being run over by dirt bikes, cars, and lawnmowers), jam up with dirt, wear out, etc. Thank you, Rome, for working so hard on this recently while I've been slacking off.

I think an even bigger problem is that our dirt is just sand and gravel from the wash. Water immediately drains right through, so the grass inevitably dries out in summer. We need topsoil, but that's either very expensive, or must be built up gradually by spreading compost. Then again, Crestline has a really nice lawn and I don't know why their dirt would be any better than ours. If someone can figure this out, I'd be interested.

10. Spread truckloads of compost once per year

Mike Knapp and Larry Chamblee took the lead on this project a year ago, and Larry's on it again. Expect to see a mountain of compost delivered to our LZ sometime soon. Rome's woodchips are a different and more controversial issue.

... continued ...
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Ken Andrews
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: The first 15 Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

... continued from above...

13. Install sink-type faucet near the hose for hand washing, water bottle filling.

When I try to wash my hands with the current spigot, I usually get my feet as wet as my hands. My thought is that a $30 faucet that still poured water on the ground would be easy to install and certainly no worse than our present arrangement. While minimal, there might be no need for a sink, cabinet, or drain plumbing.

15. Clean up tool storage area

My thoughts are described in the previous post. Suggestions are welcome.
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Christian



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Makes sense to me.

Regarding manpower for small projects: in almost every other organization I am involved with you have to volunteer for a few standing committees when you join. When that committee has a project, you get a phone call.

SHGA doesnt have such vulunteer committe lists (creating them is a worthy project in itself).

If you are taking on a project and need 10 people to help , just call 10 members. Our numbers are all on the Web site. I think most of us would find it hard to turn you down.

You can be a member here for years, and this is especially true for new members, and no one will ever directly ask you to help with a task.
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stebbins



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In reply to JT:

Jim, sorry to harp on the "complaints to the BOD" thing. I forgot to look who was posting. You are right that of all the folks in the club you are one of the ones who supports the BOD when they deserve it. That gives you the right in my mind to complain when appropriate.

As for the other stuff:

1) I wasn't saying trees or no trees. I was pointing out that the original post was confused about when we'd have shade. I actually see pros and cons on the tree thing enough that I have no opinion. I just want the correct info used to make any decision.

2) Gate: Ken Answered that just fine

3) Lawn: I agree that we don't want to make a golf course out of it. All I was saying is that the "just water it more" school of thought is a prescription for a higher water bill and not mucn more green. Ken is right that even watering would help. Fertilizer would help. I have other comments below in reply to Ken.

4) Gray water and sink: Yep. You hid my concern on the head. Ken's suggestion is fine, though.


In reply to Chip:

You hit the nail on the head. When Fred Weinmann was President, I kept telling him to delegate. When I was President, I kept telling myself the same thing. When Ken was President I told him the same thing. It is as much work to get help as it is to do it yourself. That's been our experience. I sure hope that this forum thread helps. It seems to be doing so. If that's the case, then I congratulate you! This "BOD must do it themselves" thing is burning out our volunteers. We need to share the load better.

In reply to Ken and his "process":

I think that this "process" should be posted somewhere permanent on the site. Maybe "sticky" at the top of the Volunteer thread or something. If we could combine that with Chips thread, I think we might actually get some stuff done by folks other than the BOD and the few "constant" volunteers. (We all know that there are a few we can always count on.)

More about Ken's list in the next post....
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stebbins



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ken's list:

7) Sign: I'd love to build one like they have at Crestline. I know Ken has seen it, but for those who haven't here's a description. There is a large cement "block" with recessed letters that spell out the name of the club. Also recessed, but less deeply is a "picture outline" of the mountains and a few gliders. My description can't do it justice. It is strong, resistant to graffiti to a certain extent, resistant to damage to a large extent and kind of nice looking. It is also not large or obtrusive, as Ken requested. The person who helped build it is Owen Morse. I know him and would be willing to talk to him about what it would take to make another one, if we decide we want to do something like that.

8,9,....) Grass: Yep. Sand. Gravel. No soil to speak of. Crestline put down several inches of fertilized something or other before each planting. That makes a big difference. And they have something we don't: Free water and even distribution of that water. You can make up for a lot if you have unlimited free water.... Also, they don't have years worth of who-knows-what kind of grass and weeds to fight off. They put in fresh stuff to begin with. Some of our stuff is ugly as sin, but very tough.

Grass cont.: If it is indeed true that whatever was put down (chalk?) for Jose and Cludy's wedding made the grass green for a long time, then that suggests that the bulls-eye's excessive greenness is also caused by the chalk. This is a simple, cheap and easily tested partial solution. I suggest that one of the interested parties spread some on the lawn in a pattern that can be recognized and if it gets green in the next month, then we "chalk" the whole lawn. But in the long run, we need dirt, compost, etc. I think we should just try and get some each 6 months and keep at it. Maybe it is time to think about redoing the sprinklers too. (Yea, I know, that's a huge job.)

Chip. I think this thread is great.

All. Keep up the good work.
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Ken Andrews
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Flour, not chalk Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Jose used flour to write on the lawn, just as Katherine has done when marking the bulls eye, and the flour does indeed make our lawn greener. But the bulls eye is remarkably green because it's not grass, but some little broad-leafed plant that has done extremely well there in the last few months. Why its territory exactly coincides with the circle watered by the sprinkler marking the bulls eye is a mystery to me, but that's the fact of the matter.
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Don



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: The "Process" Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ken, you should be commended for all your work and your willingness to work throught the "Process" to clean up/organize the storage areas.

BUT, this "Process" you describe is the main reason I (and maybe others) don't even think about taking the lead on a project. You went to Home Depot, priced items, put together a proposal, will wait for BOD payment agreement, and then will go back to HD make purchases and do the work. All this time, effort, and delay for $125 ! For God's sake, you probably will spend more time and effort on the "Process" than the actual project.

I agree that the "Process" is necessary and desirable for larger projects such as the trees/bushes, Gazebo, driveway resurface, lawn, etc. but for these smaller projects ??? Confused

I wonder how much time will be spent discussing your proposal - and then people wonder why Board meetings take so long.

I'll make you an offer - go out buy the stuff you need to do the job right, do the work and just submit your costs to the BOD for reimbursement. If they don't - I will.

This club needs more people like yourself - it needs less "Process". Mad

Thanks Ken. Very Happy
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Christian



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A good example of what Don is talking about it his own Summer Comp. He just did it. It was a big success and we hope he does it again this summer. Works for windsock replacements too.

A sticky outlining how to present larger projects to the Board is a great idea.

So is a list of maintenance things members are encouraged to do without consulting anybody. Or not doing, like changing the grass-watering schedule.
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Ken Andrews
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: The "process" Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Don,

Indeed, it is a little more complicated to spend someone else's money than it is to spend one's own. Even so, the steps I listed don't seem like a lot of "process" to me. If I were fixing a friend's car (which I wouldn't since I don't know how), it would only be decent of me to tell him what parts I'm buying and charging to his credit card before actually doing so. The same rules of behavior apply here. When fixing the LZ, it's pretty reasonable to explain what stuff I'm going to buy before I do it. Because the LZ belongs to 175 of my friends and it's kind of hard to ask them all, it's easier to ask the board that they elected to represent them.

That said, there are some shortcuts to this normal process. First, if you don't spend any money (or don't care about being reimbursed), then just go ahead with the project. Second, the president can authorize expenses up to $200, but it's a little inconsiderate to expect him to do this for you. Third, you can spend money and do the project, and then beg the board to reimburse your expenses. But the board may decide not to, and again this is pretty inconsiderate because it can be a fast path to an unpleasant situation.
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JBBenson



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Re: Grass-
Gypsum or Lime is use to add calcium to the soil and correct pH as needed. There is probably some of either in "chalk".

Have to say I'm with Don on this one. Will wonders never cease.

Ken Andrews wrote:
I think most of the projects could be well solved with the following five steps; unfortunately they always seem to get stuck at step B.


I don't see why we would continue using this approach as it does not seem to be effective.

Ken Andrews wrote:
Note that it is NOT the board's responsibility to prioritize the project list, or to pronounce a budget for any particular project in advance, or to kick around ideas in the already-too-long monthly meetings. The board needs only to listen to well-formed proposals and decide in favor or against them. On the other hand, it IS the responsibility of the board to learn about the sentiments of club members, the club's financial status, history, standing in the community, and so on, in order to make the best decisions it can.


I also do not know why we voted for a Board of Directors if they cannot provide direction. Why did we have all that discussion before the election? This is not a rhetorical question.

Enlightened Dictatorship, not Democracy, is the best model here. I was hoping that one of our elects could fulfill that role. I may have been mistaken.

I am not trying to argumentative. Its feels like Ken's steps are illustrative of “convenience-for-the-seller disguised as convenience-for-the-buyer” (the non-profit version). It is not surprising there is trouble finding people.

It should be simple to help, not difficult.

Ken Andrews wrote:
Second, the president can authorize expenses up to $200, but it's a little inconsiderate to expect him to do this for you. Third, you can spend money and do the project, and then beg the board to reimburse your expenses. But the board may decide not to, and again this is pretty inconsiderate because it can be a fast path to an unpleasant situation.


Why on earth would it be "inconsiderate" to ask the President for authorization? Thats what I expect a President to do. Am I wrong?
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Christian



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Pacific Palisades

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

>>>It should be simple to help, not difficult.

It is simple to help. The call comes to grab a shovel and we do.

It is not simple to propose and plan a project, present it to the board in a way that answers their oversight questions, and then execute it.

Ken's steps insure transparency. When I joined there was a full scale civil war going over over what kind of picnic tables we should sit on after flying. You never heard so much misinformation passed on by well meaning people who were pissed off beyong belief over how the club was going about the decision to sit down.

I'm pretty sure that a new gazebo will never get built until somebody settles down, plans it out, does the research and presents a design intended to please most of the people most of the time. It will take brains, time and organizational skill.
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Don



Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 509

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Picnic Tables Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"When I joined there was a full scale civil war going over over what kind of picnic tables we should sit on after flying. You never heard so much misinformation passed on by well meaning people who were pissed off beyong belief over how the club was going about the decision to sit down."


I'm sure you are right - BUT - I was laughing out loud when I read it Laughing

Of course I suspect that those picnic tables were not cheap.
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stebbins



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 597
Location: Palmdale, CA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Christian is right. It was a big deal that the club was going to spend the money on those tables. The BOD gets yelled at when they do something, and yelled at when they wait to plan it out. Ken's steps are the compromise we have worked out between ignoring the membership and getting them involved in everything. Could we do it better? Probably. This forum is, in my opinion, a great step forward. If you think a couple of months delay is slow, you should have seen how long the container took!

Just a bit of history for those who think that the BOD should just reimburse someone for "club expenses". A few years back, a member told the BOD that he/she wanted to run a party in the LZ and that it would cost $X. The BOD authorized that amount without getting a full plan on what was being purchased. It seemed a reasonable amount for a large party. Well, the person involved spent most of the money for hard liquor, not food or other party things. It has always been a firm policy of the club that it would NOT pay for liquor. We have not tried to ban alcohol from the property. But given the legal situation in this country, and our relationship with the neighbors, we have always refrained from supplying alcohol with club funds. So, now we had a situation where the club had (somewhat indirectly) purchased alcohol in large amounts. And not just beer, but hard liquor. The BOD was really annoyed about this, as the purchaser knew the club policy, but ignored it. I assume the idea was that once the purchase was made, the BOD would just accept it. They didn't. No reimbursement was made for alcohol. All parties involved were upset with each other. The club member felt trampled on. The BOD felt like they had been deliberately misinformed. THAT (and other similar situations) is why we need to have club approval for purchases.

I have from time-to-time made a personal decision to buy stuff for the club and not ask for reimbursement. But it isn't fair to ask club members to do that unless they want to. It is also not fair to ask the club (your fellow members!) to pay for stuff that their elected BOD has had no say on. However, I DO think there is nothing wrong with discussing small projects with the current President and asking for his approval for funds below his cost limit. IF AND ONLY IF, you accept it gracefully if he/she says no, or that the whole BOD needs to be asked. If you will get huffy with the President when turned down, don't ask. The job is tough enough without that. I DO disagree with Ken that it is unfair to ask. I AGREE with him that you need to understand and accept any decision made.

I think that Ken's process could be shortened a bit, but in general, it isn't that big a deal. Heck, the BOD has approved a few things that Rome wrote down on the back of a paper sack! Of course they've also turned some down, or asked for more detail. In my experience what really happens is that a club member asks a BOD member about it in the LZ, gets a "please bring that to the BOD" and then stops there. There are exceptions, of course. The tables, gazebo and compost for example. And if it doesn't cost the club anything, and doesn't impact the rest of the membership (like putting fertilizer in the middle of the runway for a week...) then just do it! Or ask the President via email or a phone call. When I was President I authorized quite a few things based on a single conversation. I also told a few folks that their request caused impacts they hadn't thought of and that they needed to bring it to the BOD.

In summary, Ken's process is ok, but could use a bit of fine tuning. This forum will help. I think the final "Process" should be posted here in a "sticky" message for all to see. Maybe it should be elsewhere on the web site as well. And I have to admit, that things are better now than they have been. This forum is quite helpful. Thanks, Chip & Chris!
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