Sunday around 3 PM I was doing what I normally do, the way I normally do it, thermalling low over the second bowl on Kagel's ridge. Facing south at about 4000 msl. I heard a soft sizzling noise. Before I could look over my shoulder a small business jet passed by me, southbound, at 3950 ft. about 150 ft. west of me. He was diving over the ridge and rolling left toward the Volcano where another glider was flying at the same height. The glider pushed his nose up and rolled and a collision was avoided. The other pilot told me that he felt the jet's wake turbulence.
This incident highlights the need to be vigilent in our duty to "see and avoid" all other aircraft. I had considered myself to be hyper-aware of other aircraft and many times, I am the one to see and announce the oncoming planes and helicopters. Nevertheless, this jet overtook me, unseen, in the time it takes to complete one turn.
Let's be watchful for conflicts on every turn. A collision would be a disaster for everyone.
Encounter with a Jet!
Moderator: Chip
Re: Encounter with a Jet!
Wow!!!!!!!!!
4000' sure does seem pretty low for a business jet in that area!!!!
4000' sure does seem pretty low for a business jet in that area!!!!
Malury wrote:Sunday around 3 PM I was doing what I normally do, the way I normally do it, thermalling low over the second bowl on Kagel's ridge. Facing south at about 4000 msl. I heard a soft sizzling noise. Before I could look over my shoulder a small business jet passed by me, southbound, at 3950 ft. about 150 ft. west of me. He was diving over the ridge and rolling left toward the Volcano where another glider was flying at the same height. The glider pushed his nose up and rolled and a collision was avoided. The other pilot told me that he felt the jet's wake turbulence.
This incident highlights the need to be vigilent in our duty to "see and avoid" all other aircraft. I had considered myself to be hyper-aware of other aircraft and many times, I am the one to see and announce the oncoming planes and helicopters. Nevertheless, this jet overtook me, unseen, in the time it takes to complete one turn.
Let's be watchful for conflicts on every turn. A collision would be a disaster for everyone.
This is a tough problem. Possible very serious consequences. What can we do? The only people who can really help here it seems are the ones flying the planes, but if we bring it up to them through ATC or the FAA we risk losing the site. I don't see much we can do other than be vigilant and attempt to get out of the way at 50 mph. That just isn't much by the time you see them, especially considering down is the only direction we go fast. If they are approaching and will be below you, what can you do? Two incidents just recently is not a good trend. Has something changed on the charts or what?
Flyyyyy
I am wondering too, why this is an issue all of a sudden. Gliders have been flying in these mountains for 30 years.
Is it possible to have some kind of broadcasting "beacon" at Kagel? Like a transponder but fixed, with a fixed "looped" broadcast about HG activity?
I have heard the Burbank broadcast about "hang glider activity", but not only is it garbled beyond recognition but obviously ignored as well. Maybe SHGA needs its own.
Anybody have any idea about the mechanics and/or logistics of this, if possible?
Is it possible to have some kind of broadcasting "beacon" at Kagel? Like a transponder but fixed, with a fixed "looped" broadcast about HG activity?
I have heard the Burbank broadcast about "hang glider activity", but not only is it garbled beyond recognition but obviously ignored as well. Maybe SHGA needs its own.
Anybody have any idea about the mechanics and/or logistics of this, if possible?
In the past 5 years we have relied on 5 different elements to help keep us safe from mid airs. 1. A symbol on the sectional and area charts. 2. Daily transcribed broadcasting on the Burbank ATIS (Automated Terminal Information Service). 3. Radio advisories from So-Cal Approach Control. 4. Our own pilot vigilence. 5. Word of mouth in the aviation community.
Recently, we have created a powerpoint presentation, highlighting the hang gliding activity in our area and are distributing this to various aviation groups. We have been put on the meeting agenda for the largest southern California Airspace Users Group, as well as the Whiteman Airport Pilots Assoc.
We also have increased our own pilot to pilot radio advisories of approaching aircraft and have seen several pilots purchase portable traffic alert systems that warn of approaching aircraft.
It remains to be seen, how effective these latest efforts will be, but it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that it is really up to us to prevent these events from happening, and the only way to do that is to completely re-train ourselves to fly differently. To expect commercial and general aviation traffic to avoid a 35 degree arc, 5 mile stretch of airspace is proving unrealistic. They are very possessive of their airspace (as we are) and expect us to obey the law and get out of their way.
Few, IF ANY, of us scan the northwestern horizon each and every 360 or each 10 or 15 seconds. We don't because we were never trained to do so, and because of all the other things we have to look at when we fly. It's really not impossible, and it's really not even that hard. It's just different! For a while, it will help to challenge each other and ourselves with a much greater level of vigilance than we've used in the past. We need to make it our highest priority in flight. And by the way, please don't write and tell us that you already look around all you can because no one has devoted more attention to this problem than me and I don't look around as much as I need to. It a matter of not whining about it, and just doing it.
Recently, we have created a powerpoint presentation, highlighting the hang gliding activity in our area and are distributing this to various aviation groups. We have been put on the meeting agenda for the largest southern California Airspace Users Group, as well as the Whiteman Airport Pilots Assoc.
We also have increased our own pilot to pilot radio advisories of approaching aircraft and have seen several pilots purchase portable traffic alert systems that warn of approaching aircraft.
It remains to be seen, how effective these latest efforts will be, but it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that it is really up to us to prevent these events from happening, and the only way to do that is to completely re-train ourselves to fly differently. To expect commercial and general aviation traffic to avoid a 35 degree arc, 5 mile stretch of airspace is proving unrealistic. They are very possessive of their airspace (as we are) and expect us to obey the law and get out of their way.
Few, IF ANY, of us scan the northwestern horizon each and every 360 or each 10 or 15 seconds. We don't because we were never trained to do so, and because of all the other things we have to look at when we fly. It's really not impossible, and it's really not even that hard. It's just different! For a while, it will help to challenge each other and ourselves with a much greater level of vigilance than we've used in the past. We need to make it our highest priority in flight. And by the way, please don't write and tell us that you already look around all you can because no one has devoted more attention to this problem than me and I don't look around as much as I need to. It a matter of not whining about it, and just doing it.
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Steve90266
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Changing the way we fly
Hang gliders are most visible to other traffic when a wing is pitched up. In addition to vigilence, perhaps we could form the habit of pitching a wing up to say 45 degrees at the exit of a thermal, or when leaving one way point for the next.
I dont know if this is a practical suggestion, but I'd be willing to adopt this practice if you guys thought it would help.
I dont know if this is a practical suggestion, but I'd be willing to adopt this practice if you guys thought it would help.
Steve Murillo
Something that might help and greatly increase the effect of some having the avoidance devices is this to encourage radio use, with license of course on the SHGA frequency. Then when any of us see aircraft we could announce and everyone would be aware instantly. I know this is obvious, but if it was done religiously imagine how much safer we would all be with a hundred eyes and ears all watching and listening including in the LZ. It seems to me this would be the most effective way to decrease the problem short of everyone buying the devices which is unlikely since some haven't even bought new underwear for years.
Flyyyyy
The Zaon device seems the optimal solution, except for the price. If most pilots hang around the launch site maybe its possible to set one up near the launch ramp that can warn all nearby pilots either via an automatic radio alarm transmit or some type of mechanical horn(alpenhorn) as seen in the Ricola commercial.
That would be excellent if we could set up one at launch or at least the LZ. If the signal had the right signature of direction and altitude to indicate a danger approaching it would send out a warning via radio. An air horn or something would be fine but only if at launch (love thy neighbor). If it's possible the club should do it. Next, our own control tower with ATIS.
Flyyyyy
Near miss? Are you sure?!?!
Since George Carlin passed on to that cloud-street-in-the-sky recently, I will include some things he was fond of noting:
Why do they call it a near miss? Doesn't a near-miss mean that it was a hit? "Whoops, I nearly missed!" And why do they call the place you get on an airplane "the terminal." That sounds scary! Then they ask me to get on the airplane. "No thanks, I think I'll ride inside with the pilot! It's a bit too windy on top for me!" And he goes on, of course, including mocking the stewardess-led pre-flight briefing for the passengers.... A funny man. Even when I disagreed with him, he made me laugh. Even without the 7-words-you-can't-say-on-television bit.
As almost always, some truth buried in the humor, eh?
I hope you had at least a small smile from this. We'll miss you Mr. Carlin!
And now back to your regularly scheduled forum.....
Why do they call it a near miss? Doesn't a near-miss mean that it was a hit? "Whoops, I nearly missed!" And why do they call the place you get on an airplane "the terminal." That sounds scary! Then they ask me to get on the airplane. "No thanks, I think I'll ride inside with the pilot! It's a bit too windy on top for me!" And he goes on, of course, including mocking the stewardess-led pre-flight briefing for the passengers.... A funny man. Even when I disagreed with him, he made me laugh. Even without the 7-words-you-can't-say-on-television bit.
As almost always, some truth buried in the humor, eh?
I hope you had at least a small smile from this. We'll miss you Mr. Carlin!
And now back to your regularly scheduled forum.....
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Yea George Carlin reminded me of that Reverend Wright in the Obama controversy. Both very entertaining. Saturday I had a jet fly directly over me while I was low over the ridge and he was about 1000 feet over head. I was thermalling inefficiently at a higher speed so the added wind noise only gave me about a 5 second warning he was in the area. It would be nice if Flytec included the collision avoidance device inside their varios(gps and moisture radar to find thermals too). I also think the kneehanger harness introduces a lot of drag while flying high speed because of the angle of my body. Maybe the Matrix would have less wind noise.
Doug
Doug