Has anybody else experienced this over Kagel or is it just me?
http://vimeo.com/19423901
Got slapped again...
Re: Got slapped again...
Markus, It looks like you're over the canyon between Kagel and in the lee-side rotor of Trash. Was this Saturday? I've never encountered this above Kagel but I have in the rotor behind Trash.M@rkus wrote:Has anybody else experienced this over Kagel or is it just me?....
Another location (near Crestline) that can be extremely turbulent and unpredictable is in the lee of the peak, just South of Cajon Mountain.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uudfp8X9U[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uudfp8X9U[/youtube]
I generally stay away from Cajon Mtn unless I'm high. Not only can it be turbulent, but the venturi through the pass can trap pilots easily. Of course, there are some days when the wind is very light and it is just fine. But whatever it's doing over by Pine or Devore, it's generally windier/bumpier by Cajon Mtn. Sometimes by quite a lot.
As for Markus, I think Jonathan is right and he's getting the lee-side turbulence from Trash. Remember, that the wind is often blowing more East there than you might think from watching launch. That puts you in the lee if you aren't high enough.
As for Markus, I think Jonathan is right and he's getting the lee-side turbulence from Trash. Remember, that the wind is often blowing more East there than you might think from watching launch. That puts you in the lee if you aren't high enough.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Hi Markus,
I downloaded your video and played it back at low speed and noticed something very disturbing so I made a new version of it to illustrate the point which I have posted below. Beginning at 12 seconds your arms go to full extension. By 15 seconds you are nearly fully pushed out. This is the recipe for entering a tumble. We don't want our Markus inverted!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjB7SgZKCE[/youtube]
It's counter-intuitive but you need to pull in when the glider pitches over like that. Think of turning your glider into a dart. You will end up with the glider pointing straight down but you will have airspeed and your center of mass will be ahead of the glider's center of pressure. The glider will pull out from this dive without your help. You will expereince some strong positive G-force pulling out but the glider is built to take the load and so is your harness.
By allowing your weight to move aft like that the glider becomes neutral like a tumbling piece of willow bark. So please heed this caution. This is the second time you have experienced negative-G turbulence and I think you reacted the same the previous time too.
I hope my explanation makes some sense even if it is counter-intuitive.
Tschüß, Jonathan
I downloaded your video and played it back at low speed and noticed something very disturbing so I made a new version of it to illustrate the point which I have posted below. Beginning at 12 seconds your arms go to full extension. By 15 seconds you are nearly fully pushed out. This is the recipe for entering a tumble. We don't want our Markus inverted!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SjB7SgZKCE[/youtube]
It's counter-intuitive but you need to pull in when the glider pitches over like that. Think of turning your glider into a dart. You will end up with the glider pointing straight down but you will have airspeed and your center of mass will be ahead of the glider's center of pressure. The glider will pull out from this dive without your help. You will expereince some strong positive G-force pulling out but the glider is built to take the load and so is your harness.
By allowing your weight to move aft like that the glider becomes neutral like a tumbling piece of willow bark. So please heed this caution. This is the second time you have experienced negative-G turbulence and I think you reacted the same the previous time too.
I hope my explanation makes some sense even if it is counter-intuitive.
Tschüß, Jonathan
Hello Jonathan,
Thanks for your comments and observations.
Joe Greblo said exactly the same thing about my last 'adventure' between "Locals" and "Towers". That one was a lot worse.
I am much more vigilant flying over that area now. I guess I have to add "Trash" to my list.
You are right, I might have encountered rotor action from "Trash". Although I was above "Trash" - I might have been right at the edge.
About puling in - it does seem counter-intuitive. How do you prepare/train for something like that? It happens so fast. Before you know it your nose gets 'slapped' and your legs are thrown upwards towards the kiel and sail.
And you are absolutely correct - the best thing to do is to pull in. Tucking in your legs probably would help too. Kind of like preparing to pick up speed for a loop.
Servus (Austrian) Tschüss (German)
Markus
Thanks for your comments and observations.
Joe Greblo said exactly the same thing about my last 'adventure' between "Locals" and "Towers". That one was a lot worse.
I am much more vigilant flying over that area now. I guess I have to add "Trash" to my list.
You are right, I might have encountered rotor action from "Trash". Although I was above "Trash" - I might have been right at the edge.
About puling in - it does seem counter-intuitive. How do you prepare/train for something like that? It happens so fast. Before you know it your nose gets 'slapped' and your legs are thrown upwards towards the kiel and sail.
And you are absolutely correct - the best thing to do is to pull in. Tucking in your legs probably would help too. Kind of like preparing to pick up speed for a loop.
Servus (Austrian) Tschüss (German)
Markus
Markus, You can prepare yourself mentally while you're flying. Just imagine the same scenario and visualize yourself pulling in when the glider gets pitched over.M@rkus wrote:.....About puling in - it does seem counter-intuitive. How do you prepare/train for something like that? It happens so fast. Before you know it your nose gets 'slapped' and your legs are thrown upwards towards the kiel and sail.....
I have no clue about what goes on in other pilots' minds when they fly but I spend a lot of time thinking about bad that can and may go wrong and how I could react to these situations. For me personally, it seems to help a little bit. I also practice spins, I do not recommend others do this because they can be extremely dangerous. You recover by pulling in.
Spins can have little margin for error and can turn from fun to extreme danger very quickly. So probably better to just train your mind. Then your reaction may become automatic.
NME's dart analogy is pretty good. Remember "when in doubt PULL IN." Moving the CG forward does many good things even when "going over the falls."
Beyond what NME said, CG forward makes you more like a dart and less like a willow bark. I think it also:
1. Makes the Reflex and/or sprogs begin to function. I'm sure they are there for a reason, use them.
2. Puts air over the wing. Control surfaces using air speed to control.
I don't know exactly what I'm talking about. We need a treatise by J. Greblo or someone with similar knowledge on the subject of "why to pull in even when tipped over."
Beyond what NME said, CG forward makes you more like a dart and less like a willow bark. I think it also:
1. Makes the Reflex and/or sprogs begin to function. I'm sure they are there for a reason, use them.
2. Puts air over the wing. Control surfaces using air speed to control.
I don't know exactly what I'm talking about. We need a treatise by J. Greblo or someone with similar knowledge on the subject of "why to pull in even when tipped over."
Yep. That does make it easier. "When it doubt, pull in!" Of course, there are exceptions, but this should be your default setting.
One exception: The ground is 2 feet away!
All joking aside, it is really the case that the default option should be to pull in. Unfortunately, that's not what our untrained intuition tells us. It says: "Whoa. Slow down pardner!" Thus we do the exact opposite of what we should do... That's why competent training and extensive practice matter. (And is one reason why practice needs to be within extra-safe limits while you aren't yet fully "trained up".)
BTW, I noticed the push-out in the video too. It is definitely there.
One exception: The ground is 2 feet away!
All joking aside, it is really the case that the default option should be to pull in. Unfortunately, that's not what our untrained intuition tells us. It says: "Whoa. Slow down pardner!" Thus we do the exact opposite of what we should do... That's why competent training and extensive practice matter. (And is one reason why practice needs to be within extra-safe limits while you aren't yet fully "trained up".)
BTW, I noticed the push-out in the video too. It is definitely there.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George