Mike Ivey's windsock twang
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skygeek AKA Seabass
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Mike Ivey's windsock twang
Here it is do not watch if broken bones make you squemish Thanks to Wayne Yentis for the video [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBMDjomY2Mw[/youtube]
Last edited by skygeek AKA Seabass on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile if interested SGHA pilot were coached on how to do consistent, full-flare landings--(if and when needed of course)? In Mike's case there was a clear opportunity for him to flare his Sport 2 155 and set it down clean, short of the windsock.dhmartens wrote:....Maybe if we downgrade the streamer pole to a breakable Golf Flag type it would be safer, but less visible....
Also, if newer pilots wish to fly X/C in the Los Angeles basin it is essential to know how to land a double-surface glider with as few footsteps as possible.
Let's use the 25k on one of these for the LZ
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QrKzLVujs[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QrKzLVujs[/youtube]
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gregangsten
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am
- Location: Westchester
Flaring
Watching this tells me that it's better to be practicing flares than constantly running out landings. There are times you don't want to flare but others where you absolutely need to do it well, like here.
That's a tough break, Mike. We've all made mistakes but usually we just don't get punished so badly for them. Hope you heal up well.
That's a tough break, Mike. We've all made mistakes but usually we just don't get punished so badly for them. Hope you heal up well.
There used to be wood chips along that wall and I seen many a Lightspeed Impact those chips sometimes 2 downtubes at a time and never any injury. It was a great safety idea until they caught fire and almost blew into the residential neighborhood. I've seen impact water barrels in front of hazards off the side of a road. A large stack of water balloons could have averted any injury where a stack of hay or a ring of white rock might create worse injuries. I think we used to have a white circle of rocks around the windsock as well as some chairs. The Romans used to defend against horses by forming rings with their troops because horses naturally avoid that circular formation.
I'm not in any way an expert, but it seems to me that he hit the pole because he failed to avoid it. His sudden lift put him off course, in a way moving the pole into his flight path. The new added height added energy that lengthened his distance to bleed it off. If he flared he may have not made it to the pole, but wouldn't he have risen up in the stall and then keel planted pretty hard if he chose that method, maybe even right on top of the pole. It seems to me it was correct to NOT flare at that point and rather fly the the glider longer, but the key was to steer around the pole. The mistake seems to me to be letting the glider steer left in that sudden lift and not correcting immediately. First rule is never stop flying the wing until it's on the ground and stopped. I make this mistake too, by wanting to get on the ground ASAP once I'm close. I'm working on that myself.
Like I said, I'm not the expert, but that's what I saw. I'm interested to hear other opinions.
I also assume that the best thing to do in that situation when you are about to hit a pole is to let go and tuck the arms in. Of course hardly anyone ever remembers to do that.
I notice that I'm a much better pilot from here at my keyboard. Not even a paper cut.
Like I said, I'm not the expert, but that's what I saw. I'm interested to hear other opinions.
I also assume that the best thing to do in that situation when you are about to hit a pole is to let go and tuck the arms in. Of course hardly anyone ever remembers to do that.
I notice that I'm a much better pilot from here at my keyboard. Not even a paper cut.
Last edited by Glenn on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flyyyyy
mike ivey's windsoak twang
It looks as if the glider was allowed to fly "off the runway line". Because of the left turn had a full flare been performed it might have caused the glider to turn left even more and put him in the boulders below.Anyway I hope that Mike heels fast and will be back in the air soon!
That streamer pole has always been a concern for me. I have come
uncomfortably close to it couple of times myself during those rowdy
conditions.
So, I think it's time to rethink the pole.
I like Doug's idea of a flexible or collapsible pole. Maybe smaller diameter
PVC? Breakable/disposable? Or hinge/ball swivel bottom with spring
support? Spring support only?
"Weak link" type of strings?
And yes, the base has to be level with the field, no protruding
concrete or rocks. There was a big spring on the bottom, I am not sure if
it's still there, but with this purposed new approach it would become
unnecessary.
Any thoughts?
uncomfortably close to it couple of times myself during those rowdy
conditions.
So, I think it's time to rethink the pole.
I like Doug's idea of a flexible or collapsible pole. Maybe smaller diameter
PVC? Breakable/disposable? Or hinge/ball swivel bottom with spring
support? Spring support only?
"Weak link" type of strings?
And yes, the base has to be level with the field, no protruding
concrete or rocks. There was a big spring on the bottom, I am not sure if
it's still there, but with this purposed new approach it would become
unnecessary.
Any thoughts?
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Steve90266
- Posts: 488
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- Location: Manhattan Beach
- Contact:
Crazy LZ
No doubt the LZ is a challenge, but aren't they all, for various reasons? I'm comfortable with our LZ and the challenges it presents.
Invariably, we can expect to get popped by a thermal or two on final, depending on the time of day. Looks like Mikey got hit by a pretty good one.
Speed is life, as we used to say. Best we can do is keep the speed on through the transition from flight to ground effect, then bleed it off or run it out, depending on the situation.
Invariably, we can expect to get popped by a thermal or two on final, depending on the time of day. Looks like Mikey got hit by a pretty good one.
Speed is life, as we used to say. Best we can do is keep the speed on through the transition from flight to ground effect, then bleed it off or run it out, depending on the situation.
Steve Murillo
Isn't that an oxymoron?
No matter, others have raised the question of windsock placement and the board is open for suggestions for change. The requirements (as I see them):
As close to the usual landing spot as possible;
But not an obstacle
OR
Easily collapsible;
Not wind collapsible (although, a collapsed sock pole is a pretty good indicator we shouldn't be flying).
Big enough to see from a distance (I'd like to see it from at least the Gavina bridge at 3000ASL).
Light enough material for usable/reliable indication of wind velocity near the ground.
There is also a complaint about the rear sock as an obstacle on low approaches.
Who is going to take this on?
Would anyone care to counter that either is not an issue?
Or are we not going far enough? There are RVs and storage containers in line with the strip. What about leaving gliders set up just outside the cone line? Keep in mind, someone has hit the gate and the block wall in the last ten years (same person). And the power lines. And landed on Gridley and the parking area. And smacked downwind into the brush to the North on the other side of the berm.
Maybe we should stop landing here. It's too dangerous.
See you all out there tomorrow.
No matter, others have raised the question of windsock placement and the board is open for suggestions for change. The requirements (as I see them):
As close to the usual landing spot as possible;
But not an obstacle
OR
Easily collapsible;
Not wind collapsible (although, a collapsed sock pole is a pretty good indicator we shouldn't be flying).
Big enough to see from a distance (I'd like to see it from at least the Gavina bridge at 3000ASL).
Light enough material for usable/reliable indication of wind velocity near the ground.
There is also a complaint about the rear sock as an obstacle on low approaches.
Who is going to take this on?
Would anyone care to counter that either is not an issue?
Or are we not going far enough? There are RVs and storage containers in line with the strip. What about leaving gliders set up just outside the cone line? Keep in mind, someone has hit the gate and the block wall in the last ten years (same person). And the power lines. And landed on Gridley and the parking area. And smacked downwind into the brush to the North on the other side of the berm.
Maybe we should stop landing here. It's too dangerous.
See you all out there tomorrow.
It should have been a clumsy but safe wheel landing on soft grass. It looked like Mike was looking at the streamer pole for a few seconds but didn't react to it like it was a threat or obstacle, with an evasive maneuver. It looks like a small birch tree maybe you could just plow though. The pole is spring loaded so you might be able to impact it at 5 feet at 15 mph without serious damage. I wonder if the idea to veer left and land in the wash (a second chance) came to mind. I just thought maybe a tumbleweed type bush planted near or around the base would act as a recognizable visual object to avoid and also as a safely impact crumple zone.
When I watched him get lift from that thermal in slow motion it look liked he was towing up. Another thing I noticed was his helmet chin guard contacted the pole which may have saved him from some injury.
When I watched him get lift from that thermal in slow motion it look liked he was towing up. Another thing I noticed was his helmet chin guard contacted the pole which may have saved him from some injury.
Sorry I'm just now getting around to replying to this thread. Typing is still a bit of a chore. Thanks everyone for the tips. I can't provide a final cause any better than most of the attempts here, but I hope I can provide a little insight into what I was thinking during the landing.
My first problem, which Joe Greblo and Jim (from above) confirmed: right from the beginning when I turned to final, I was off my centerline. I was a little worried of overshooting due to my high speed at the time, so I didn't correct it early - I was thinking I might need to use the overshoot ramp. As a result the slight correction back to the right I did make was not enough to get me back on centerline. Glenn's point is pretty spot on. At no point during my approach did I really think about the windsock as a potential hazard, so I didn't take it into account when correcting my heading.
A quick aside here: I don't think the windsock adds much additional danger to the LZ where it is now. Had the windsock not been there, I had roughly equal chanced of running it out fine or going over the edge of the LZ into the wash (which would have been really ugly). Certainly a wide flat LZ would be preferable, but since we have to work with what we've got, I don't think moving the windsock would make a substantial difference in LZ safety.
When I made my hand change my heading was just to the right of the sock. When i did my hand change the nose popped, though I'm not sure why at this point... I didn't think I caused it directly, maybe turbulence hit at the same time as the hand change - which lead to a delay in my correcting it? Although watching the video again, it looks like I pushed out a little bit as I approached the rise, possibly to get some room to get my feet under me? I can't really remember pushing out intentionally, but it does look like I pushed out a little right before the nose popped. Regardless, the nose pop was accompanied by a rising right wing, which put my heading directly in line with the sock. At this point i was more worried about getting the nose back down to keep from overshooting into the wash so I focused on that, not correcting the turn. After getting the wing back level, I thought I could get it down in time to stop the glider before hitting the windsock (this was the first time i really registered it).
The lack of a strong flare was the last of a series of errors. I may have been able to stop the glider quicker had I flared hard as soon as my feet touched. But I don't think a good flare alone would have 'fixed' this landing. There were several other mistakes - both in judgement and execution - that caused the crash.
Anyway, I'm doing fine now. Arm is in a sling for at least 6 more weeks, but otherwise I'm fine. Going to try to make it out to the LZ on Sunday if I can drive out, so hopefully I'll see y'all there.
Mike
My first problem, which Joe Greblo and Jim (from above) confirmed: right from the beginning when I turned to final, I was off my centerline. I was a little worried of overshooting due to my high speed at the time, so I didn't correct it early - I was thinking I might need to use the overshoot ramp. As a result the slight correction back to the right I did make was not enough to get me back on centerline. Glenn's point is pretty spot on. At no point during my approach did I really think about the windsock as a potential hazard, so I didn't take it into account when correcting my heading.
A quick aside here: I don't think the windsock adds much additional danger to the LZ where it is now. Had the windsock not been there, I had roughly equal chanced of running it out fine or going over the edge of the LZ into the wash (which would have been really ugly). Certainly a wide flat LZ would be preferable, but since we have to work with what we've got, I don't think moving the windsock would make a substantial difference in LZ safety.
When I made my hand change my heading was just to the right of the sock. When i did my hand change the nose popped, though I'm not sure why at this point... I didn't think I caused it directly, maybe turbulence hit at the same time as the hand change - which lead to a delay in my correcting it? Although watching the video again, it looks like I pushed out a little bit as I approached the rise, possibly to get some room to get my feet under me? I can't really remember pushing out intentionally, but it does look like I pushed out a little right before the nose popped. Regardless, the nose pop was accompanied by a rising right wing, which put my heading directly in line with the sock. At this point i was more worried about getting the nose back down to keep from overshooting into the wash so I focused on that, not correcting the turn. After getting the wing back level, I thought I could get it down in time to stop the glider before hitting the windsock (this was the first time i really registered it).
The lack of a strong flare was the last of a series of errors. I may have been able to stop the glider quicker had I flared hard as soon as my feet touched. But I don't think a good flare alone would have 'fixed' this landing. There were several other mistakes - both in judgement and execution - that caused the crash.
Anyway, I'm doing fine now. Arm is in a sling for at least 6 more weeks, but otherwise I'm fine. Going to try to make it out to the LZ on Sunday if I can drive out, so hopefully I'll see y'all there.
Mike