launch from back of kagel
Moderator: Chip
launch from back of kagel
im new......... why can't you take off from the north side of kagal on northwest winds ?
Because you will crash.
Seriously, experience has shown that it is very dangerous to fly the back side in a NW. The way the wind comes through the pass or over towers or whatever really messes up the flow. Just ask Sebastian.
He flew his rigid wing and still didn't make it past the dam. Ouch. Only his superb skills saved him from the mistake of flying there in a NW.
Really. No joking. Don't even think about it.
If anyone wants to give more detail fine, but the key is we have lots of experience with this one. Just don't do it.
Seriously, experience has shown that it is very dangerous to fly the back side in a NW. The way the wind comes through the pass or over towers or whatever really messes up the flow. Just ask Sebastian.
He flew his rigid wing and still didn't make it past the dam. Ouch. Only his superb skills saved him from the mistake of flying there in a NW.Really. No joking. Don't even think about it.
If anyone wants to give more detail fine, but the key is we have lots of experience with this one. Just don't do it.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
David -
Everybody in this club would like to fly on those beautifully clear, post-frontal,northwest days, but we don't.
The north launch of Kagel Mountain is a Hang 4 launch, so if you are new, you probably aren't rated for that launch. The reasons it's a Hang 4 launch are that:
1. It's a shallow launch with a lousy runway that has dips and bumps that make it difficult to make a smooth launch, or to maintain consistent pitch control.
2. Northwest winds are cross from the left - too cross to launch safely. The bushes create bad turbulence in a northwest wind. It can be flown on Santa Ana days, when the wind is more northeast.
3. When you can launch into Santa Anas, you are in a little bowl, flying in ridge lift. There is not much room for a number of gliders. I've never seen anyone get much above the ridge, although on convergence days, some of the hotshot pilots can launch the back and work up into the convergence. But don't try this at home.
4. The Santa Anas are sometimes rough and unpredictable because of the ridges out there to windward. You can experience horrible down cycles. Sebastian Lutges, a very experienced Hang 4 pilot, flying his super high performance ATOS V, launched the back within the past year, hit horrible sink, couldn't make it over the dam, and planted it in the back side of Kagel. He says he will never launch the back again.
5. You can't get to the LZ without getting up over the top, or flying through the gap over the Pacoima Dam. If you have left the ridge because you're getting pounded in a down cycle, you may not have enough altitude to clear the dam, and you're screwed.
6. If you do make it over the dam, you have to set up your landing in the opposite direction from a normal landing, and it's a completely different landing field, with a completely unfamiliar approach, and a different wind pattern than what you're used to. If you're not used to landing out, or other landing fields, it shouldn't be done without coaching, especially if you're new.
Everybody in this club would like to fly on those beautifully clear, post-frontal,northwest days, but we don't.
The north launch of Kagel Mountain is a Hang 4 launch, so if you are new, you probably aren't rated for that launch. The reasons it's a Hang 4 launch are that:
1. It's a shallow launch with a lousy runway that has dips and bumps that make it difficult to make a smooth launch, or to maintain consistent pitch control.
2. Northwest winds are cross from the left - too cross to launch safely. The bushes create bad turbulence in a northwest wind. It can be flown on Santa Ana days, when the wind is more northeast.
3. When you can launch into Santa Anas, you are in a little bowl, flying in ridge lift. There is not much room for a number of gliders. I've never seen anyone get much above the ridge, although on convergence days, some of the hotshot pilots can launch the back and work up into the convergence. But don't try this at home.
4. The Santa Anas are sometimes rough and unpredictable because of the ridges out there to windward. You can experience horrible down cycles. Sebastian Lutges, a very experienced Hang 4 pilot, flying his super high performance ATOS V, launched the back within the past year, hit horrible sink, couldn't make it over the dam, and planted it in the back side of Kagel. He says he will never launch the back again.
5. You can't get to the LZ without getting up over the top, or flying through the gap over the Pacoima Dam. If you have left the ridge because you're getting pounded in a down cycle, you may not have enough altitude to clear the dam, and you're screwed.
6. If you do make it over the dam, you have to set up your landing in the opposite direction from a normal landing, and it's a completely different landing field, with a completely unfamiliar approach, and a different wind pattern than what you're used to. If you're not used to landing out, or other landing fields, it shouldn't be done without coaching, especially if you're new.
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee
My comments only applied to NW. NE is different. Still H4, but with some judgement and care, and attention to Larry's points, doable. NW is a whole different thing, and is just not safe there. When I was a H2, I thought it looked safer in NW than a NE, but it just isn't so.
There is a sailplane saying "Lift is where you find it." Which means sometimes you don't know why, but it is still there. The same is true for bad air. Sometimes it just is. Whether you understand it, or you don't, use the experience of the other pilots to save yourself having to learn the hard way.
Learn from other people's mistakes. Nobody lives long enough to make the all themselves.
There is a sailplane saying "Lift is where you find it." Which means sometimes you don't know why, but it is still there. The same is true for bad air. Sometimes it just is. Whether you understand it, or you don't, use the experience of the other pilots to save yourself having to learn the hard way.
Learn from other people's mistakes. Nobody lives long enough to make the all themselves.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Better Explanation?
David,
The guys are only trying to help, but this may better cement the picture. You can see here in
goggle earth that the back ridge faces directly NE. If the conditions are truly NW then the
wind is paralleling the ridge.
Now if we could only build a launch on the NW side of the donut.
(Just Kidding) Too much rotor from locals likely.
NW is a difficult direction here in the southland. As you gain experience
you'll find Santa Barbara and Torrey Pines good alternate locations.
As you can see you'll likely do some traveling if you want to fly on NW days.
The guys are only trying to help, but this may better cement the picture. You can see here in
goggle earth that the back ridge faces directly NE. If the conditions are truly NW then the
wind is paralleling the ridge.
Now if we could only build a launch on the NW side of the donut.
(Just Kidding) Too much rotor from locals likely.
NW is a difficult direction here in the southland. As you gain experience
you'll find Santa Barbara and Torrey Pines good alternate locations.
As you can see you'll likely do some traveling if you want to fly on NW days.
There is also a good NW site in Tehachapi, but it is inside the Bear Valley private community. You need to be an owner or be a guest of an owner to even enter there. The locals are friendly, so one could get in with a bit of friendly talk.
They are, however, a bit cautious about outsiders because of some past difficulties. They lost their tow site after one use because someone (not to be named here, but many of you can figure out who it is) did aerobatics over the airport after specifically being told not to do so. The local airport folks chased them out before the day was done and told them never to come back.
They have allowed me to fly there, though. You just have to convince them you are trustworthy.
They are, however, a bit cautious about outsiders because of some past difficulties. They lost their tow site after one use because someone (not to be named here, but many of you can figure out who it is) did aerobatics over the airport after specifically being told not to do so. The local airport folks chased them out before the day was done and told them never to come back.
They have allowed me to fly there, though. You just have to convince them you are trustworthy.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George