The other side

JT · Post by JT » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:43 pm

"And I get on my knees and pray... we don't get fooled again!"

Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:09 am

Maybe this will help...

A lot of people wonder why we need the Torrey Hawks in San Diego.

The answer is very simple ... because neither the SDHGPA nor USHPA would stand up for pilots - particularly hang glider pilots - at Torrey Pines.

That's the underlying fact. Neither the SDHGPA nor USHPA would do their job protecting their own members against David Jebb. Period.

And who were the people in charge at that time? They were Brad Hall and Lisa Tate (for USHPA) and David Metzgar and Bret Daniel (for the SDHGPA). All of those people are still in power today.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the Torrey Hawks have united a large number of hang gliding pilots to try to fix what neither USHPA nor the SDHGPA would fix on their own. And now we're finally beginning to see some progress. We've replaced David Jebb as Regional Director. We've got the Soaring Council going again. We've got a new USHPA representative on the Soaring Council. We've got a voice on the Advisory Board. We're having monthly hang glider fly-ins at Torrey Pines. Most importantly, we don't have any hang glider (or paraglider) pilots currently banned from Torrey. That's what the Hawks have done. We've also represented hang gliding at local events (like the Powerlink Festival and the Kick Gas Festival) where the SDHGPA only donated paragliding flights and only demonstrated paragliders. It was the Torrey Hawks who donated the hang gliding flights and demonstrated the sport of hang gliding at both of those San Diego events.

But we're not done yet. The Soaring Council is still not balanced. USHPA is still using secret ballots whenever they want. We don't have a defined appeal process for banned pilots at Torrey (or anywhere else). Hang gliding pilots are still subject to ticketing for landing on the beach while Brad Hall has brokered a deal allowing paragliding students to land there without penalty. That's why we still need the Hawks, and that's why we'll probably always need the Hawks. We will always need a voice to stand up for pilots (and particularly hang glider pilots) at Torrey Pines where there is so much business pressure to push paragliding. When you think about it in those terms, it's obvious why we need the Hawks as a strong voice for hang gliding at a predominantly paragliding site. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Thanks to everyone who has supported the Hawks with their membership and their votes.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
( 858-204-7499 and bobkuczewski@gmail.com )

dhmartens · Post by **dhmartens** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:27 am

JT, This is a serious subject.

Brad hall wrote a letter to the local government saying there is no problem at Torrey. This is a good thing because once the government gets involved we lose control of the outcome. The government may impose an unpredictable out come - like shutting down the site. This is something that should be handled internally. Pilots need to vote, but vote smart by learning about the facts, the site conditions, the needs of the paragliding school, etc.

Funny hang/paraglider cartoon
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BvNh3jr8Y[/youtube]

Beautiful HD clip of Torrey Pines flying - part 2 is even better
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMCDQ_UJsp4&hd=1[/youtube]

Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:55 am

dhmartens wrote:JT, This is a serious subject.

Brad hall wrote a letter to the local government saying there is no problem at Torrey. This is a good thing because once the government gets involved we lose control of the outcome. The government may impose an unpredictable out come - like shutting down the site. This is something that should be handled internally. Pilots need to vote, but vote smart by learning about the facts, the site conditions, the needs of the paragliding school, etc.

This is a serious subject, and maybe you know more than I do. The only letters that I've seen where Brad Hall has written to the City of San Diego are those he wrote to try to keep the Torrey Hawks off of the Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board. You can read them here:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=8045

He lost that battle, and the City of San Diego properly assigned the SDHGPA to represent paragliding (since they're mostly a paragliding club) and the Torrey Hawks to represent hang gliding on that advisory board.

I've suspected that Brad has written other letters to the City as well, and I've asked him to come forward with what he's written. He has refused. Do you know any more about what he's written to the City of San Diego?

Thanks in advance.

dhmartens · Post by **dhmartens** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:15 am

Just those letters I saw posted online you have quoted.

Ok I read this online:
"..The Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established by the Parks Recreation Department, City of San Diego, in 1978 to provide advice and council regarding flight safety and other matters. .....

Initial conflicts between the users of the gliderport were strong, and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established to help mediate discussions between representatives for all user groups at the site."

So it is a natural matter and interest of the city to get involved. The intent of the council is to represent ALL groups. I don't think we have that kind of government intervention here in Sylmar though.

Another issue Brad brought was, Is the Torrey Hawks a valid group?

I read online there are 195 members but I looked through http://www.torreyhawks.org at the member list
http://www.torreyhawksforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=4098

and only see 5 members. Are there more?
San Diego is the 9th largest city in the US and second largest in California, there should be more members and hang gliders.

Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:08 pm

dhmartens wrote:Just those letters I saw posted online you have quoted.

Ok I read this online:
"..The Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established by the Parks Recreation Department, City of San Diego, in 1978 to provide advice and council regarding flight safety and other matters. .....

Initial conflicts between the users of the gliderport were strong, and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established to help mediate discussions between representatives for all user groups at the site."

So it is a natural matter and interest of the city to get involved. The intent of the council is to represent ALL groups. I don't think we have that kind of government intervention here in Sylmar though.

Another issue Brad brought was, Is the Torrey Hawks a valid group?

I read online there are 195 members but I looked through http://www.torreyhawks.org at the member list
http://www.torreyhawksforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=4098

and only see 5 members. Are there more?
San Diego is the 9th largest city in the US and second largest in California, there should be more members and hang gliders.

The Torrey Pines Soaring Council isn't part of the City in any way. It is just made up of the representatives from 7 different clubs. That's it. Those clubs are:

1. USHPA - representing HG and PG (national)
2. SDHGPA (San Diego Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association) - representing HG and PG (local)
3. AMA (American Modeler's Association) - representing RC's (national)
4. Torrey Pines Gulls - representing RC's (local)
5. TPSSS (Torrey Pines Scale Soaring Society) - representing RC's (local)
6. SSA (Soaring Society of America) - representing sailplanes (national)
7. AGCSC - representing sailplanes (local)

What do you notice there? How many local hang gliding clubs? (answer: about 1/2) How many local paragliding clubs? (answer: about 1/2) How many local RC clubs? (answer: 2)

Because we've allowed hang gliding and paragliding to be represented in just one club (nationally and locally) we only get two representatives for two sports. But the RC guys have THREE representatives for ONE sport. Does that sound right to anyone on this forum?

Regarding the Torrey Hawks, we are USHPA Chapter #270 and we have about 195 members. Most are from Southern California. I've posted our current histograms below. The first one shows our membership by USHPA number (in groups of 10,000). The second shows our membership by area code (with approximate city/state names appended). We have members from all over the country, but the largest groups are from Southern California.

=== Hawks Members by USHPA Number ===

00000 to 09999 : *******
10000 to 19999 : ***********
20000 to 29999 : ****************
30000 to 39999 : ***********************
40000 to 49999 : ******************
50000 to 59999 : *********************
60000 to 69999 : ********************
70000 to 79999 : *********************
80000 to 89999 : ***********************************************

=== Hawks Members by Area Code ===

619 : ***************** San Diego, CA
909 : ***************** San Bernardino, CA
714 : *************** Los Angeles, CA
951 : *************** Riverside, CA
801 : ************** Salt Lake City, UT
818 : ************ San Fernando (LA Area), CA
760 : *********** San Diego County, CA
626 : ******** Pasadena (LA Area), CA
949 : ******* Irvine (LA Area), CA
310 : ****** Malibu (LA Area), CA
562 : ***** Long Beach (LA Area), CA
858 : ***** San Diego, CA
702 : **** Las Vegas, NV
408 : *** San Jose, CA
435 : *** Park City, UT
503 : *** Portland, OR
650 : *** Palo Alto, CA
661 : *** Santa Clarita (LA Area), CA
831 : *** Monterey, CA
281 : ** Houston, TX
415 : ** San Francisco, CA
509 : ** Spokane, WA
541 : ** Eugene, OR
808 : ** Hawaii
93 : * Australia
206 : * Seattle, WA
208 : * Idaho
209 : * Modesto, CA
213 : * Los Angeles, CA
214 : * Dallas, TX
321 : * Melbourne, FL
323 : * Hollywood (LA Area), CA
406 : * Montana
413 : * Massachusetts
510 : * San Francisco, CA
614 : * Columbus, OH
701 : * North Dakota
705 : * Ontario, Canada
717 : * Harrisburg, PA
805 : * Santa Barbara, CA
843 : * Charleston, SC
928 : * Flagstaff, Az
980 : * Charlotte, NC

Now, there are some pilots in that list who are not local (we've got a bunch of members who visit from Salt Lake City). And there are pilots in that list who haven't even flown at Torrey Pines (some of our members are still less than H4 pilots). But every one of those members has joined the Hawks because they want to ensure that the sport of hang gliding (as distinguished from paragliding) gets fair treatement at Torrey.

By the way, I was a member of the SDHGPA long before I had the ratings to fly HG or PG at Torrey. I was also a member of the Torrey Pines Gulls long before I had the RC ratings to fly Torrey. So all of the clubs on that list may have significant numbers of members who have never flown Torrey.

Now let's compare that list to some of the other clubs on the Soaring Council. Do you know how many members are in some of the other clubs? I don't know for sure (because the Soaring Council Chairman won't tell me), but I've heard that two of those clubs (TPSSS and AGCSC) have memberships of less than 10 or 15 pilots!! And yet they have a seat on the Soaring Council and the Hawks have been kept out.

More than anything else, the Hawks represent a point of view that has not been represented on that Council. The SDHGPA has become a paragliding club and they do whatever the Jebbs (or current concessionaire want). In fact, their club President (David Metzgar) tried to appoint Gabe Jebb to represent all local hang glider and paraglider pilots on the Soaring Council. Fortunately, the Council's bylaws prevented that due to a conflict of interest. But that shows you how biased the SDHGPA is toward the Jebbs. And that's actually fine ... as long as there is another voice to represent the pilots who aren't controlled by the Jebbs. And that's what the Hawks would certainly be.

But here's the biggest issue. The Soaring Council contains 7 clubs (3 RC clubs, 2 sailplane clubs, 2 HG/PG clubs). The combined sports of hang gliding and paragliding have less representation than the RC pilots!! How can that make any sense?

You mentioned the members on the Torrey Hawks forum. Unfortunately, that forum never became popular because most of our members prefer hanggliding.org. In fact, I do most of my posting to hanggliding.org because I can reach a much greater audience there. I'm certainly an avid Torrey Hawks supporter, and the fact that I don't post to the Torrey Hawks forum much myself doesn't say anything about my own commitment to the club - so it shouldn't say anything about anyone else's either. I will say that both the Torrey Hawks forum and our club's web site hosting were donated by two separate individuals (not myself) who cared enough to make that effort on their own - they don't get paid for those services.

Finally, (and I'm sorry to make this so long), it's clear that there is a division about Torrey. Some will say it's a hang gliding / paragliding division, others will say it's a management / pilots division. Either way, both sides deserve to have fair representation on that Council. Right now, the SDHGPA is the ONLY local club representing hang gliding or paragliding. Their club presidents, vice presidents, and most of their members have been paragliding pilots for many years. They have not been fair representatives for hang gliding on that Council. They would not request a written reason for David Beardslee's LIFETIME suspension, and they would not request a written reason for my own one year suspension. So the SDHGPA has NOT been doing its job on the Council to help mediate problems at Torrey.

Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:09 pm

dhmartens wrote:Just those letters I saw posted online you have quoted.

Ok I read this online:
"..The Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established by the Parks Recreation Department, City of San Diego, in 1978 to provide advice and council regarding flight safety and other matters. .....

Initial conflicts between the users of the gliderport were strong, and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council was established to help mediate discussions between representatives for all user groups at the site."

So it is a natural matter and interest of the city to get involved. The intent of the council is to represent ALL groups. I don't think we have that kind of government intervention here in Sylmar though.

Another issue Brad brought was, Is the Torrey Hawks a valid group?

I read online there are 195 members but I looked through http://www.torreyhawks.org at the member list
http://www.torreyhawksforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=4098

and only see 5 members. Are there more?
San Diego is the 9th largest city in the US and second largest in California, there should be more members and hang gliders.

The Torrey Pines Soaring Council isn't part of the City in any way. It is just made up of the representatives from 7 different clubs. That's it. Those clubs are:

1. USHPA - representing HG and PG (national)
2. SDHGPA (San Diego Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association) - representing HG and PG (local)
3. AMA (American Modeler's Association) - representing RC's (national)
4. Torrey Pines Gulls - representing RC's (local)
5. TPSSS (Torrey Pines Scale Soaring Society) - representing RC's (local)
6. SSA (Soaring Society of America) - representing sailplanes (national)
7. AGCSC - representing sailplanes (local)

What do you notice there? How many local hang gliding clubs? (answer: about 1/2) How many local paragliding clubs? (answer: about 1/2) How many local RC clubs? (answer: 2)

Because we've allowed hang gliding and paragliding to be represented in just one club (nationally and locally) we only get two representatives for two sports. But the RC guys have THREE representatives for ONE sport. Does that sound right to anyone on this forum?

Regarding the Torrey Hawks, we are USHPA Chapter #270 and we have about 195 members. Most are from Southern California. I've posted our current histograms below. The first one shows our membership by USHPA number (in groups of 10,000). The second shows our membership by area code (with approximate city/state names appended). We have members from all over the country, but the largest groups are from Southern California.

=== Hawks Members by USHPA Number ===

00000 to 09999 : *******
10000 to 19999 : ***********
20000 to 29999 : ****************
30000 to 39999 : ***********************
40000 to 49999 : ******************
50000 to 59999 : *********************
60000 to 69999 : ********************
70000 to 79999 : *********************
80000 to 89999 : ***********************************************

=== Hawks Members by Area Code ===

619 : ***************** San Diego, CA
909 : ***************** San Bernardino, CA
714 : *************** Los Angeles, CA
951 : *************** Riverside, CA
801 : ************** Salt Lake City, UT
818 : ************ San Fernando (LA Area), CA
760 : *********** San Diego County, CA
626 : ******** Pasadena (LA Area), CA
949 : ******* Irvine (LA Area), CA
310 : ****** Malibu (LA Area), CA
562 : ***** Long Beach (LA Area), CA
858 : ***** San Diego, CA
702 : **** Las Vegas, NV
408 : *** San Jose, CA
435 : *** Park City, UT
503 : *** Portland, OR
650 : *** Palo Alto, CA
661 : *** Santa Clarita (LA Area), CA
831 : *** Monterey, CA
281 : ** Houston, TX
415 : ** San Francisco, CA
509 : ** Spokane, WA
541 : ** Eugene, OR
808 : ** Hawaii
93 : * Australia
206 : * Seattle, WA
208 : * Idaho
209 : * Modesto, CA
213 : * Los Angeles, CA
214 : * Dallas, TX
321 : * Melbourne, FL
323 : * Hollywood (LA Area), CA
406 : * Montana
413 : * Massachusetts
510 : * San Francisco, CA
614 : * Columbus, OH
701 : * North Dakota
705 : * Ontario, Canada
717 : * Harrisburg, PA
805 : * Santa Barbara, CA
843 : * Charleston, SC
928 : * Flagstaff, Az
980 : * Charlotte, NC

Now, there are some pilots in that list who are not local (we've got a bunch of members who visit from Salt Lake City). And there are pilots in that list who haven't even flown at Torrey Pines (some of our members are still less than H4 pilots). But every one of those members has joined the Hawks because they want to ensure that the sport of hang gliding (as distinguished from paragliding) gets fair treatement at Torrey.

By the way, I was a member of the SDHGPA long before I had the ratings to fly HG or PG at Torrey. I was also a member of the Torrey Pines Gulls long before I had the RC ratings to fly Torrey. So all of the clubs on that list may have significant numbers of members who have never flown Torrey.

Now let's compare that list to some of the other clubs on the Soaring Council. Do you know how many members are in some of the other clubs? I don't know for sure (because the Soaring Council Chairman won't tell me), but I've heard that two of those clubs (TPSSS and AGCSC) have memberships of less than 10 or 15 pilots!! And yet they have a seat on the Soaring Council and the Hawks have been kept out.

More than anything else, the Hawks represent a point of view that has not been represented on that Council. The SDHGPA has become a paragliding club and they do whatever the Jebbs (or current concessionaire want). In fact, their club President (David Metzgar) tried to appoint Gabe Jebb to represent all local hang glider and paraglider pilots on the Soaring Council. Fortunately, the Council's bylaws prevented that due to a conflict of interest. But that shows you how biased the SDHGPA is toward the Jebbs. And that's actually fine ... as long as there is another voice to represent the pilots who aren't controlled by the Jebbs. And that's what the Hawks would certainly be.

But here's the biggest issue. The Soaring Council contains 7 clubs (3 RC clubs, 2 sailplane clubs, 2 HG/PG clubs). The combined sports of hang gliding and paragliding have less representation than the RC pilots!! How can that make any sense?

You mentioned the members on the Torrey Hawks forum. Unfortunately, that forum never became popular because most of our members prefer hanggliding.org. In fact, I do most of my posting to hanggliding.org because I can reach a much greater audience there. I'm certainly an avid Torrey Hawks supporter, and the fact that I don't post to the Torrey Hawks forum much myself doesn't say anything about my own commitment to the club - so it shouldn't say anything about anyone else's either. I will say that both the Torrey Hawks forum and our club's web site hosting were donated by two separate individuals (not myself) who cared enough to make that effort on their own - they don't get paid for those services.

Finally, (and I'm sorry to make this so long), it's clear that there is a division about Torrey. Some will say it's a hang gliding / paragliding division, others will say it's a management / pilots division. Either way, both sides deserve to have fair representation on that Council. Right now, the SDHGPA is the ONLY local club representing hang gliding or paragliding. Their club presidents, vice presidents, and most of their members have been paragliding pilots for many years. They have not been fair representatives for hang gliding on that Council. They would not request a written reason for David Beardslee's LIFETIME suspension, and they would not request a written reason for my own one year suspension. So the SDHGPA has NOT been doing its job on the Council to help mediate problems at Torrey.

OSCAR · Post by **OSCAR** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:02 pm

That B the "Who"----- Right JT.Who do You have to talk to to get a XL Torrey Hawks Shirt .HUUUUUMMMMMMM ,Ya think Brad could get me One.

I would like to show my suppot

JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:34 pm

And the hits just keep on comin'... page six, anyone?
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JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:59 pm

YeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!
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JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:00 pm

This could be it!
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JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:02 pm

Going to bed now.
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JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:04 pm

I never thought one page held this much... bed now, promise.
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JT · Post by JT » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:07 pm

I lied. What's "General Error" mean? Debug Mode? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:38 pm

Sorry about the double posting. I tried to go back and delete it (or at least cut out the text), but that didn't seem to work.

I don't know what all the devils (

) were about, but I was just answering the questions raised about the Torrey Hawks.

JT · Post by JT » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:51 pm

George Stebbins, my friend, where are you?

jcflies · Post by **jcflies** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:17 pm

jim, you have crossed over into the land of the CERTIFIABLE! (ask me how i know, i double triple effin' dare ya!)

bob, you have totally missed your calling. if ONLY you were my PD when i totally needed one on that trumped-up murder rap.
would you be interested in taking a "power line crash vs. the ushg deductible" case? (they're in the right, but, i dunno, maybe you'd take it just for the sheer love of argument's sake? you argue the way a nightingale sings!) i hereby nominate you for the supreme court! "right-minded men might reasonably believe..."
seriously though, you'd wear down the jury, the judge and the prosecution! you'd be brilliant!!! if you aren't too old, you should TOTALLY go into law! a PIT BULL would "let it go" before you would! YOU ROCK!!!

JT · Post by JT » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:07 am

OK, Janyce, how do you know?

Bob Kuczewski · Post by **Bob Kuczewski** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:43 am

jcflies wrote:bob, you have totally missed your calling. if ONLY you were my PD when i totally needed one on that trumped-up murder rap.
would you be interested in taking a "power line crash vs. the ushg deductible" case? (they're in the right, but, i dunno, maybe you'd take it just for the sheer love of argument's sake? you argue the way a nightingale sings!) i hereby nominate you for the supreme court! "right-minded men might reasonably believe..."
seriously though, you'd wear down the jury, the judge and the prosecution! you'd be brilliant!!! if you aren't too old, you should TOTALLY go into law! a PIT BULL would "let it go" before you would! YOU ROCK!!!

Thanks for the kind words. When I started reading your post I wasn't sure how it was going to end up.

I do apologize for my long posts (and for the inadvertant double post - "I clicked, but nothing happened, so, duh, I'll just click again!"). But some of this stuff is complicated and one of the skills I lack is the ability to boil things down to a one-liner. Fortunately, lots of other people do that for me, and I'm thankful for that.

The situation at Torrey has been brewing for 10 or 20 years. I've come along and tried to change it overnight. That "overnight" has ended up being nearly 3 years now, but we are making progress. I thank everyone at Sylmar for helping us down here in San Diego. I hope we can return the favor if you ever need our support.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski

Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

The other side

Hawks Shirt XL