Turtle Time On Launch
Turtle Time On Launch
Sunday May 26, 2013 approximately 4:30 PM. Conditions on launch had been gusty to over 25 MPH at times and switchy since arriving on launch around 1:30 PM. I tried twice to launch and backed off due to strong conditions. I had a 3 person wire crew at those times as I felt it was important for safety reasons. One of my wire crew people needed to leave so I just figured that I would wait for conditions where a 2 person wire crew could still be effective. Shortly after the third person left to go down the hill, the conditions lightened up to where I felt comfortable with a 2 person wire crew. The winds were now in the 15-18 MPH range and more consistent. I posted my wire person on my right wing as that is usually the one that gets lifted. I had a 50/50 chance of being correct in that decision. As things went, that turned out to be an incorrect decision. Just after I cleared my nose person the left wing lifted beyond where I could control it. My nose person was unable to get back into position due to the loose dirt on the ramp and they slipped and fell. The wing proceeded to lift to the point where it carried myself and my student passenger over to the west side of the ramp apron upside down. The plus side to loose dirt on the side apron is that it cushioned the wing causing less damage than hard dirt. The loose dirt also helped the kingpost sink into the dirt and keep the glider from sliding down the hill. Neither my student nor myself were hurt which is fortunate. My nose person was hit in the back by the glider as it went over but was minor in nature as it was just a sharp blow. In the future, if conditions are the way they were, I will not attempt a launch without a full wire crew. I will also consider breaking down in similar conditions, which I have done in the past.
I thought I should put this in writing where others might comment with similar or opposite experiences.
Two or three times in the last few weeks I have been the nose-wire assist for advanced and intermediate pilots. Each time was in winds equivalent to Fred's description. And each time I had multiple incidents of the left wing lifting while the pilot tried to settle in for launch. The worst was with a T2C which prompted the pilot to direct me to pull the wing far behind launch to correct. The nose of the glider was pointed more toward the middle of Trash than straight off launch although the direction was pretty much straight in. This is different from before the launch work when Fred's right-wing assistance was the norm.
My solution is to ask my nose-assist to get me over the edge, off of the flat but the footing is treacherous. Fortunately, my wife has no qualms about laying face-down in the dirt for me. I guess I should start paying her more.
Two or three times in the last few weeks I have been the nose-wire assist for advanced and intermediate pilots. Each time was in winds equivalent to Fred's description. And each time I had multiple incidents of the left wing lifting while the pilot tried to settle in for launch. The worst was with a T2C which prompted the pilot to direct me to pull the wing far behind launch to correct. The nose of the glider was pointed more toward the middle of Trash than straight off launch although the direction was pretty much straight in. This is different from before the launch work when Fred's right-wing assistance was the norm.
My solution is to ask my nose-assist to get me over the edge, off of the flat but the footing is treacherous. Fortunately, my wife has no qualms about laying face-down in the dirt for me. I guess I should start paying her more.
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Steve90266
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Turtle on launch
The blown launch I experienced some three years ago began with my left wing being lifted. I have seen a number of other folks experience the same left wing problem.
On the other hand, I have also witnessed at least one blown launch caused by the right wing being lifted. On gusty days, "switchy" is probably the best way to describe the direction of the wind coming up over launch. Unpredictable.
Pilot Beware.
On the other hand, I have also witnessed at least one blown launch caused by the right wing being lifted. On gusty days, "switchy" is probably the best way to describe the direction of the wind coming up over launch. Unpredictable.
Pilot Beware.
Steve Murillo
There are two issues that need to be sorted in order improve launch safety at Kagel:
1 - Pilots and wire crew need to learn to level a glider's wings by yawing the glider and not by pulling a wing down.
2 - Pilots and wire crew need to be aware that the reconfigured ramp has an anomaly that not only causes the left wing to rise but oulls it forward then makes the glider roll hard to the right upon launch regardless of the wind direction.
I have recorded the ramp anomaly on video from my own recent launches and have received credible reports from other pilot's observations. It seems to be an issue when the wind is above 15mph.
More pilots and wire crew could stand to learn the use of yaw control to keep wings level regardless of prevailing wind direction. Now would be a really good time for anyone interested to change techniques.
1 - Pilots and wire crew need to learn to level a glider's wings by yawing the glider and not by pulling a wing down.
2 - Pilots and wire crew need to be aware that the reconfigured ramp has an anomaly that not only causes the left wing to rise but oulls it forward then makes the glider roll hard to the right upon launch regardless of the wind direction.
I have recorded the ramp anomaly on video from my own recent launches and have received credible reports from other pilot's observations. It seems to be an issue when the wind is above 15mph.
More pilots and wire crew could stand to learn the use of yaw control to keep wings level regardless of prevailing wind direction. Now would be a really good time for anyone interested to change techniques.
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Steve90266
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:05 pm
- Location: Manhattan Beach
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Left wing rising
Glide LA, it would be great if you could post your video to this forum. It would be helpful for all of us to study. Thanks.
Steve Murillo
Re: Left wing rising
Steve, I deleted all of my unedited video that show the difficulty of managing a glider in stronger winds on the reconfigured ramp. However there is just enough in the two edits below to illustrate the point.Steve90266 wrote:Glide LA, it would be great if you could post your video to this forum. It would be helpful for all of us to study. Thanks.
In the first video below whose launch, Jim is referring to in his post, please note where my control bar is aimed. That would be about 20 degrees to the left of the ridge line. This isn't even as bad as it was while handling the glider before I felt I cou8ld safely launch.
Then note that I do not need a side wire person. This is because the nose wire man can level the wings by controlling the yaw by my command or the nose wire man can be ready for me to yaw the glider at any moment while still managing the nose against gusts.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWMInPF-EUE[/youtube]
In the next video Chad is on my nose and even though I launch in a significant left yaw the glider still make a hard roll to the right. Imagine what this would have looked like had I lined up my glider with the prevailing wind and commanded a wing wire man to release and then jumped off?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDl-kYqmeT4[/youtube]
Pilots need to learn that roll control on the ramp comes from correctly yawing the glider and not from banking the glider side-to-side via the downtubes or telling a wire man to pull down or push up.
The pilots needs to command his crew to either make the yaw for him or to not interfere with his initiation of yaw inputs. But either way, if pilots and wire crew continue to ignore this fundamental principle there will be additional crashes on launch as well as unsafe and sketchy launches.
But wait, there's more. The winds behind the ramp are filled with swirling eddys that can knock a glider around pretty good when it's windy. What then? Yaw becomes extremely important when walking to the ramp but often it isn't enough. These are swirling winds you would never launch in but must walk though to get to the ramp. When behind the ramp it is very often necessary to have a side wire man hold your wing from dropping or rising for you.
This conflicts with safe procedure when you are on the ramp and so pilots need to grasp this distinction in the rules of safe handling and make it clear to the crew that once on the ramp, all roll control comes from yawing the glider with the exception of extreme turbulence or gusts.
I further want to add that wind direction as indicated by the windsock up on the mast and the streamers on the side of the hill do not indicate which direction your glider's nose should be pointed.
In Conclusion:
Your glider's nose should be pointed in the direction that keeps the wings level with no other inputs and regardless of the apparent wind direction.
Good Luck!
Jonathan
My .02, your mileage may vary.
I do not like people on my nose wires. I believe that if the pilot cannot control the pitch of the glider on launch, you have no business being there. Now, if you're new, I think there's an argument for having someone there to help you focus on what's important.
For experienced pilots, they should understand that the nose wire person actually is an impediment to you being able to launch.
I know I prefer to have side wire crew, because I innately understand the wing that is getting lifted needs to be rotated back, not down. Only a side wire person will be able to correct that appropriately when things are going wrong.
When I lift the glider, all that the wire crew needs to do is nothing, unless I call for assistance. They don't need to hold anything, get out of the way, or get in my way.
There was a little discussion about this on Sunday in the LZ. Seems I'm in the minority when it comes to this, unless you're from France. Still, I'll continue to ask you to clear my nose wires before picking up the glider.
I do not like people on my nose wires. I believe that if the pilot cannot control the pitch of the glider on launch, you have no business being there. Now, if you're new, I think there's an argument for having someone there to help you focus on what's important.
For experienced pilots, they should understand that the nose wire person actually is an impediment to you being able to launch.
I know I prefer to have side wire crew, because I innately understand the wing that is getting lifted needs to be rotated back, not down. Only a side wire person will be able to correct that appropriately when things are going wrong.
When I lift the glider, all that the wire crew needs to do is nothing, unless I call for assistance. They don't need to hold anything, get out of the way, or get in my way.
There was a little discussion about this on Sunday in the LZ. Seems I'm in the minority when it comes to this, unless you're from France. Still, I'll continue to ask you to clear my nose wires before picking up the glider.
nose wires
I hind sight I agree with Chip on not having a nose wire person besides walking up to launch. I broke from my normal procedure the other day when I plowed over Nancy. Normally I clear my nose person prior to my final pick up of the glider. Not always but usually. I believe that the time it takes for a nose wire person to clear the side wire is a recipe for something to happen. That was not what happened with me,Sunday I didn't watch her or wait for her to say clear and jumped the gun. I also didn't instruct my wire crew anything, complacency. One needs to tell their wire crew the feedback they want and are accustomed to. I think taking your eye off the horizon to confirm the nose person is clear is a bad decision so thats where they need to yell clear once clear. I didn't request that and didnt wait in any event as Im sure she would have had I given her time. As Chip said if you cant control your pitch attitude in high wind or any wind then you don't belong up there. I guess one could have a clear nose then clear side but I believe that would lead to confusion and result in holding the glider up too long. Approach it more like self launching but with side wire people.
When I use side wire assistance I always instruct my assistants to only touch the wires if I ask for help. That gives me more confidence that I will not have an issue with the side wires. I use a nose wire person because my "limo" has a long chord and has a lot of bar pressure in the pitch mode. I also use my nose wire person to yaw the glider to a position where I feel a balanced wing. This matches what Jonathan states in his post. I have rethought my wire person placement since my incident. If I only have one wire person available, I use them on the left wing. My reason for this is that my nose person will be clearing to the right wing which would give them an opportunity to grab the right wire if it became necessary. I just used this system yesterday. My incident took place after I felt that I had a level wing and the nose person had cleared. It was at that time that the left wing lifted from a gust. At that point the nose person was unable to help as they were slipping in the loose dirt on the ramp.
Yeah, Tandems are a different animal, and I'll not pretend to know anything about them. My preferences are based on my own experiences and I just don't like people in front of me. But I also don't enjoy high wind launches either. My comments would not have been directed to Fred or any other tandem operators. 
I've seen some launches that use a person on the keel instead of the nose as in the case of the radial ramp in Dunlap, TN. Might be worth considering if someone feels a need for a nose wire person.
I've seen some launches that use a person on the keel instead of the nose as in the case of the radial ramp in Dunlap, TN. Might be worth considering if someone feels a need for a nose wire person.
My little speech to wire crew is, "When I say 'clear,' that is a request and a question. I want you to let me have the glider without you touching it, and I want to hear you answer that you are clear, meaning you are not touching the glider and if you are a nose person, that you're giving me a 'go' for launch."
This is especially important when you have wire crew whom you do not know. Jonathan and Chippy are right when they say that when a wing stars to rise, the wire crew should allow or help the pilot yaw the glider rather than yanking the wing down. But you'd be surprised - - or maybe not - - how many experienced pilots acting as wire crew yank the wing down instead of letting the pilot yaw the glider.
This is especially important when you have wire crew whom you do not know. Jonathan and Chippy are right when they say that when a wing stars to rise, the wire crew should allow or help the pilot yaw the glider rather than yanking the wing down. But you'd be surprised - - or maybe not - - how many experienced pilots acting as wire crew yank the wing down instead of letting the pilot yaw the glider.
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee
I had a flight with Chad and Dietch a few week back. The wind was coming in over twenty, but it was sssomewhat steady. Chad was on my nose wires. Before I got the glider lifted up, I said to Chad, "Let's get the glider level. then I'll say clear". I lifted the glider, I mentioned it feels level, Chad agreed, and I said clear.
I would have to say that Chad was very good on the wires, and once I said "clear"... He quickly side-stepped to my right and was ducking; all in one motion.
All you need to do is look at Dietch's resent launching video; pay attention to Chad.
There are some days you can fiddle, but other days you need to identify the window and aggressively take it.
Something your line-handler needs to understand.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDl-kYqmeT4[/youtube]
A yawing class would be nice.
I would have to say that Chad was very good on the wires, and once I said "clear"... He quickly side-stepped to my right and was ducking; all in one motion.
All you need to do is look at Dietch's resent launching video; pay attention to Chad.
There are some days you can fiddle, but other days you need to identify the window and aggressively take it.
Something your line-handler needs to understand.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDl-kYqmeT4[/youtube]
A yawing class would be nice.
One motion. "Riverdance right, duck!"
Step practice video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cujri54RPKw[/youtube]
Step practice video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cujri54RPKw[/youtube]
Jim also did an excellent job of getting below my side wire as did Max at Blackhawk recently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQUezH1-bjoBusto wrote:...I would have to say that Chad was very good on the wires, and once I said "clear"... He quickly side-stepped to my right and was ducking; all in one motion....
