A place for Pavilion Questions and Answers

jwjanda · Post by **jwjanda** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:27 pm

JT wrote:The answer is that there are actually two slabs in Hiro's design. The first is on-grade and would keep moisture from seeping up from the ground or pooling under the stored gliders. The second slab is elevated about 30 inches by stem walls supported by below-grade footings. The second slab is the walking surface. The glider storage is sandwiched between the two slabs. The footings and stem walls are what require re-bar. The raised slab can be formed by a temporary, shored-up platform with cement poured over re-bar or by pouring on top of steel decking that becomes part of the structure under the concrete. There is no re-bar in the slab-on-grade.

All the forms construction and concrete adds a lot to the cost. I am investigating substituting pre-cast block for the stem walls which would greatly reduce labor and materials expense. However, this requires revising the engineering. Is there a licensed, structural engineer in the club who would donate some calculation time?

Why do a slab over the glider storage at all? Have your slab on grade, then build up CMU stemwalls at 10'o.c., and span over the gliders with composite deck (concrete filled metal deck). You'd have vertical bars in the cmu, and wire reinforcing in the slab, cmu and composite deck. And there's no need for formwork.

Also, the design calls for below-slab waterproofing, right? Other wise you've got water seeping up from the ground into the glider storage area.

dhmartens · Post by **dhmartens** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:28 am

I value Rome's opinion, after all if he's contributed membership dues over the past 30-35 years then he's actually a major financial contributor to this project. Any storage addition will pay itself off over a few years. This "expensive", under the pavilion solution will just take an extra year or 2 to pay off its cost and then it will help generate free revenue for years to come.
What we also are forgetting is an additional storage container and surrounding space will eat up 600 to 1000 square feet of our LZ. And that space is not "free". Another idea I had was if we add a 3rd storage box is to place them far enough apart to allow a car or camper to park in between them.

Rome Dodson · Post by **Rome Dodson** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:22 am

A CERTAIN MEMBER JUST BOUGHT A 40 FT. ONE FOR 2,000$, DELIVERED AND TAX FREE. PLUS I JUST LIKE TO SET GEORGE OFF ROME

Rome Dodson · Post by **Rome Dodson** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:23 am

A CERTAIN MEMBER JUST BOUGHT A 40 FT. ONE FOR 2,000$, DELIVERED AND TAX FREE. PLUS I JUST LIKE TO SET GEORGE OFF ROME

OSCAR · Post by **OSCAR** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:34 am

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stebbins · Post by **stebbins** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:22 pm

DeadEye wrote:A CERTAIN MEMBER JUST BOUGHT A 40 FT. ONE FOR 2,000$, DELIVERED AND TAX FREE. PLUS I JUST LIKE TO SET GEORGE OFF ROME

Photos please. I'll bet it's a piece of junk, or not suitable for our uses. Unless the price has dropped by a factor of 5 in the last few years, which seems highly unlikely.

Without appropriate evidence, I don't believe that such is available on the open market for that price unless it is damaged, the wrong size, plastic instead of metal (I've seen those too) or has some other issue. Of course, that doesn't mean somebody didn't buy one from their brother-in-law who just wanted to get rid of it. If we could get that kind of insider deal, then that would be a different story, of course.

Hey, I'd love to be wrong. (Yes, I mean that Rome!) But there's an old saying that applies here: If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

AlC · Post by **AlC** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:26 am

CSS just bought and installed a nice (new to us) insulated container. Painted and delivered the asking price was a little over $6,000 and we did better after some negotiation.

Rebar Dan installed the racking last week (not in the $6K).

Check it out when you come to visit.

Always glad to see you folks out here.

- Alan

OSCAR · Post by **OSCAR** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:13 am

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

stebbins · Post by **stebbins** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:12 pm

AlC wrote:CSS just bought and installed a nice (new to us) insulated container. Painted and delivered the asking price was a little over $6,000 and we did better after some negotiation.

Rebar Dan installed the racking last week (not in the $6K).

Check it out when you come to visit.

Always glad to see you folks out here.

- Alan

Thanks for the information. Sounds like you got a good deal. 20, 30 or 40 feet?

Ours are NOT 20 feet, even though that would work for most gliders. It cuts it awfully close for some, though. And precludes Tandem and other storage.

Note that while this is cheaper than I remembered, it is nowhere near $2k, and doesn't include all the innards (racks etc.) Our price for the new box was also painted and delivered. From the difference between the old price and the CSS one, I wonder if times really are that bad.* If so, maybe it makes sense to get one regardless of what we do with the Gazebo. (Of course only after a bit of investigation into demand, full cost etc!)

And on rereading Rome's post, I note he says tax free. I wonder who would be short-changing the state. Makes me suspicious. Or maybe the seller is paying. I'd get that in writing if so.

* Shipping containers do get cheaper when the economy gets soft. Less trade. Less need for containers. They need to unload some of them. You get the idea. I'm a bit surprised (pleasantly so) that the difference is that big.

AlC · Post by **AlC** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:51 pm

It's the full 40 feet (same as it's twin). It is the fully insulated variety which run quite a bit more than the standard ones. But we install without a pad so the insulation is required to keep it nice and cool inside. The pricing included tax and was pre-haggling.

The bills are pretty much all in so I should have the actual final cost (including racking) soon.

The Andy Jackson fly-in is coming up in July. Check it out while you're here (or before

)

- Alan

Rome Dodson · Post by **Rome Dodson** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:12 pm

I'V BEEN TRYING TO GET MEMBERS TO BRING WOOD TO THE L.Z., FOR THE GAZIBO, BUT SOME NUTS KEEP BURNING IT!!!!!!!!!!

DigitalBishop · Post by **DigitalBishop** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:26 pm

Once the design changes are done for the gazebo. Maybe a materials manifest in order to build it could be put up on the forum so members could bring supplies and materials to be donated to the cause?

OP · Post by OP » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:35 pm

We need to think a bit larger... A structure that will allow the club to grow. This building has 7 rotating restaurants on the top.

DigitalBishop · Post by **DigitalBishop** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:29 pm

Awesome! Think they'll ship it to us? Looks kinda bombed out though ...

Rome Dodson · Post by **Rome Dodson** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:12 am

OH WELL ---EASY COME EASY GO! ROME

bricksfly · Post by **bricksfly** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:52 pm

I was wondering if SHGA was a true non-profit organization 501 C 3 as Crestline reports they are?

I saw suggestions of getting sponsors to help out our cost.

If we are a true non-profit then they could make donations or contributions as potential tax write-offs... Possible incentive anyway.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:32 pm

Bill,

SHGA is a 501c7. The idea of converting to a 501c3 has been and continues to be discussed (sporatically). The "conversion" process would be lenghty (maybe a year), and cost as much as $1,000. The biggest obstacle is a lack of immediate or foreseen importance or significance. Since there is no apparent need - no one (including myself) cares much about it. However, you are right - being able to deduct any contribution to the SHGA could well be a significant consideration.

It is my understanding, from discussions with CSS, that they converted to be eligible for some money. I like the idea that $95 of my $100 annual membership fee is tax deductible - thereby reducing the true cost of my membership in the CSS to ~ $68.

bricksfly · Post by **bricksfly** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:34 am

Thanks for the information and letting folks know how even their individual membership dues when paid to a non-profit are tax deductible. It may be enough to start discussion on this topic once again.
Local companies are very good about donating to non-profits as good will efforts to show their local support of their community. Some stores that come to mind are Target, Costco, large grocery stores, donations from stores like this could be a considerable benefit to the club.

thanks again.

JT · Post by JT » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:47 pm

A quick update: Steve Nootenboom and Rich Grigsby spent considerable time to give me another look at costs. Their recommendations for cost reductions have been forwarded to our architect. Both evaluations put the costs of construction back in the $60,000 range assuming a redesign of the foundation and a lot of member participation. I haven't heard from any members yet about their commitment to supply the "grunt" in grunt-work and the skills they could bring.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:03 am

I'll volunteer

You should know the following:

1. I've been told by numerous people that I grunt alot - that's good right?

2. However, I have never had anyone tell me that I had any skill(s)

3. Noreen will tell you that I do NOT follow orders or instructions

With those disclosures I'm ready, willing, and able.

Now, one more time, what end of that gizmo am I suppose to hold?

Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

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