A place for Pavilion Questions and Answers

[JT]

As promised, I'm giving a partial report on the progress (or lack) of the Pavilion Project.

I received the cost estimate for materials and labor to erect the foundation (only) from a contractor specializing in concrete construction. Full disclosure: he's my friend and neighbor and has built much of what is and is around, my home. He's very experienced and very reasonable.

I wasn't shocked due to my familiarity with the complexity of the plans but I was a little disheartened. The list, itemized by costs for the parts that make up the whole, came to $72,000. The contractor immediately made some suggestions for changes in the plan to reduce the cost by about $25,000. However, they may not be changes that can be made without further engineering or may be prohibited by regulations such as, the disabled access ramp. I have communicated all this to Hiro, our architect for comment.

I am also awaiting a second estimate from a club associate for corroboration.

The contractor also made some inquiries on our behalf and received apparently favorable responses when discussing sponsorships with some of the suppliers he solicited for material bids.

While the estimate is a daunting figure, I haven't given up hope. The remaining estimate will be key to how I proceed: whether to make major plan revisions, change the contractor level of participation, whatever. And whatever happens, I remain committed to getting something built for this club.

And now, as Rob just said to me, "let the whining begin."

[JD]

JT - Thank you for the status report and all your efforts on behalf of the club and visitors to our rare, quasi-urban hang gliding mecca!
Cheers, Jonathan

[JBBenson]

That figure is not surprising. I am guessing that is without any padding. It could even go higher as problems are encountered.

I would guess you could get it to around 60,000 with "value engineering" but much less than that will require a major design change.

[Don]

... came to $72,000."

Not Whining - just

[OSCAR]

fffffffffffffffffffffff

[Lynn McLaughlin]

Thanks for the update Jim. I understand we are still looking in to other resources and gathering more information. As news becomes available we can look forward to you and Joe sharing.

L

[stebbins]

First, I want to state that I appreciate Jim's (and the rest of the folks working on this) for the openness shown. And for the hard work. No whining to come from me. If I sound like I am whining at any point, I wish to state up front that that's MY problem, not yours, and that I will continue to appreciate the work you've all done. That doesn't mean I'll always agree, of course, and as you all know, I am almost incapable of not speaking my mind. (Believe it or not, I used to be even worse!)

Now, my opinion:

$72k is too much. I love the design, but... Of course, maybe we can clean it up, simplify, nudge here, there, or whatever to make it more reasonable. If so, then I'm all for it. If not, then we need to reassess. Not that we need to abandon the idea. We need a nice structure, preferably with storage. But, we might have to scale back our expectations. Of course, I'm all for looking at how to do it without losing too much! Good ideas often come from the strangest places, so maybe someone out there will give us some ideas that will help.

One thing though: I think it is better to have a smaller but very nice structure than a larger, but cheesily built one. Of course, it doesn't need to be gold-plated, so to speak, but the whole point is violated if we make it look too cheap.

Again, this is not a whine. I think the folks involved have been doing a good job. They are being honest about what they find, even when it might bring them grief from members. But the numbers are the numbers. While I don't think it is quite time for it yet, if we cannot get someone to give as a realistic bid within our budget, then we have to reassess. I wish that wasn't the case, as I really do like the design. But wishing will not make it so.

[JBBenson]

Sounds to me like the material costs and labor are causing the problem....

We need to find a way to eliminate these damned material and labor costs.

Do we really need them?

[OSCAR]

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[JT]

JB Benson wrote:We need to find a way to eliminate these damned material and labor costs.

Glad you brought it up, Jesse. Greblo believes that much of the labor cost can be eliminated by the use of member-sweat. I agree, to a lesser extent. Some of the labor must be done by professionals. We can dig trenches and swing hammers but are there any expert concrete finishers in the club? Does anyone (who will work for nothing) know how to set the level lines and construct the forms? Bend the re-bar? Joe believes that members with these skills exist AND that they are willing to volunteer their time. Is that true? See Greblo to sign up; Uncle Joe needs YOU!

Materials are another thing and I'm working with Hiro. Joe also thinks he may have a supplier of lumber, gratis. The contractor who worked this cost up was told by the cement supplier they may be interested in a partial sponsorship, if they get to place some advertisement at the site.

Joe and I are only interested in building this project the right way and for somewhere close to what was originally estimated. The first push is to cut costs without compromising what the members placed on the wish list at the beginning.

[stebbins]

Sounds to me like the material costs and labor are causing the problem....

We need to find a way to eliminate these damned material and labor costs.

Do we really need them?

The first time I read this, I was puzzled. Then I read it again, and grinned. Then I read it again, and laughed out loud. Today, I read it one more time, and found it even funnier.

Maybe I'm weird (ok, probably I am) but I appreciate the humor.

Thanks, JB!

Now, if we can just get rid of the fees and permit costs too, that would make it..... Free!

[stebbins]

JB Benson wrote:We need to find a way to eliminate these damned material and labor costs.

Glad you brought it up, Jesse. Greblo believes that much of the labor cost can be eliminated by the use of member-sweat. I agree, to a lesser extent. Some of the labor must be done by professionals. We can dig trenches and swing hammers but are there any expert concrete finishers in the club? Does anyone (who will work for nothing) know how to set the level lines and construct the forms? Bend the re-bar? Joe believes that members with these skills exist AND that they are willing to volunteer their time. Is that true? See Greblo to sign up; Uncle Joe needs YOU!

Materials are another thing and I'm working with Hiro. Joe also thinks he may have a supplier of lumber, gratis. The contractor who worked this cost up was told by the cement supplier they may be interested in a partial sponsorship, if they get to place some advertisement at the site.

Joe and I are only interested in building this project the right way and for somewhere close to what was originally estimated. The first push is to cut costs without compromising what the members placed on the wish list at the beginning.

In the past, Steve Wallick did our concrete work. He did a good job too. But he's not in the area anymore. There may be others who can do such. I am often pleasantly surprised at the skills we have in the club. By and large, we are competent people. But that makes sense, yes? I mean we fly hang gliders!

[abinder]

hmmmmmmmm................guess I don't understand the design of the gazebo. Is there actually going to be rebar in the concrete slab that has to be bent? How thick is this concrete slab going to be? The concrete slab isn't going to have to support a lot of weight is it?

All of the farms back in Michigan that I grew up on and around, any concrete slabs that were laid, 2x4's were used to contain the concrete while it dried. We even put as many rocks into the area bounded by the 2x4 framing so that less concrete had to be used. Those concrete slabs lasted many years (and I'm pretty sure they're still there if they haven't been purposely torn out by now).

I just think, but don't know, that people are just trying to make the concrete slab a lot more complicated that it needs to be. Why would the concrete slab have to be more than 4 inches thick? Do people really need to be sitting 'high' in the air?

Just a thought. But then again, I really know very little about the design of the gazebo.

Allen

[stebbins]

I also don't know much about it, but perhaps there are code issues. This isn't Michigan. We have serious earthquakes here. People have gone to jail for adding extra rock to concrete and then having it fail in a shaker... (Contractors, not homeowners, of course! And generally for bridges or larger buildings, but the idea is there. Code has changed in the last 20 years - we've learned a lot.) Also, it wouldn't surprise me if code for structures used for people is different than code for structures for stuff. (In Palmdale, I didn't need a permit or rebar when I did the slab for my storage shed if it was smaller than 100 square feet, for example. Over that, I needed permits and other stuff. Maybe rebar too? I stayed under 100 square feet.)

I'm not saying that's an issue, just noting that there may be things that us non-contractor types don't know about. Footers too. I don't know code on them, but they are needed in general.

And my recollection, admittedly vague, is that there was no rebar in the slab for the toilets, but that there was some in the slab for the 2nd storage box. (I didn't see the pour for the first one.) But I wouldn't swear to that.

[JT]

The answer is that there are actually two slabs in Hiro's design. The first is on-grade and would keep moisture from seeping up from the ground or pooling under the stored gliders. The second slab is elevated about 30 inches by stem walls supported by below-grade footings. The second slab is the walking surface. The glider storage is sandwiched between the two slabs. The footings and stem walls are what require re-bar. The raised slab can be formed by a temporary, shored-up platform with cement poured over re-bar or by pouring on top of steel decking that becomes part of the structure under the concrete. There is no re-bar in the slab-on-grade.

All the forms construction and concrete adds a lot to the cost. I am investigating substituting pre-cast block for the stem walls which would greatly reduce labor and materials expense. However, this requires revising the engineering. Is there a licensed, structural engineer in the club who would donate some calculation time?

[dhmartens]

We can save money on the roofs by prying them off unsuspecting Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants in the wee hours of the morning.

[Rome Dodson]

IF WE FORGET ABOUT STORING SPACE UNDER GAZIBO FLOOR,(GREAT IDEA ,BUT TOO EXPENSIVE) REDESIGN 1 STORY STRUCTURE AND BUY ANOTHER CONTAINER. THAT SHOULD SAVE US 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF $$$. MANY CLUB MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM MY SWEETHEART HAS THEY DON'T KNOW THE DIFERANCE BETWEEN WANT AND NEED!!! ROME

[JT]

Rome's idea will be one of the options considered, if the costs cannot be pared enough to make the plan feasible. Then we'll evaluate the priority of the wish-list items included by the membership at the beginning of this project.

Any word on a prospective structural engineer out there?

[JT]

Rome's idea will be one of the options considered, if the costs cannot be pared enough to make the plan feasible. Then we'll evaluate the priority of the wish-list items included by the membership at the beginning of this project.

Any word on a prospective structural engineer out there?

[stebbins]

IF WE FORGET ABOUT STORING SPACE UNDER GAZIBO FLOOR,(GREAT IDEA ,BUT TOO EXPENSIVE) REDESIGN 1 STORY STRUCTURE AND BUY ANOTHER CONTAINER. THAT SHOULD SAVE US 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF $$$. MANY CLUB MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM MY SWEETHEART HAS THEY DON'T KNOW THE DIFERANCE BETWEEN WANT AND NEED!!! ROME

Rome has the same problem as my young children: They can't do arithmetic, or think that they can make up the numbers.

Seriously, in order to save 10's of thousands of dollars, the following would have to be true:

The extra cost of the "raised" portion would have to be at least $20k + the cost of the box. ($20k is the minimum that qualifies as 10's of thousands of dollars.) The cost of the newer box (without innards) was more than $10k. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was not anywhere near what Rome said in an earlier post.

I seem to recall (but am willing to be corrected) that all-up and installed, the newer of the two boxes was $15k or so. I doubt we want anything less nice than that.

So, if my recollection of the numbers is close, the break-even point of using a box instead of raised floor is $15k. For Rome's "save 10's of thousands of dollars" to be true, we'd have to eliminate $35k from the current design. ($20k + $15k) Would lowering the floor do that? I doubt it, but again, I could be wrong.

The point is, that unless Rome has access to the cost data from the estimates of both designs, and the Engineering data on the different designs, he cannot possibly know that we could save tens of thousands of dollars by lowering the floor and using another storage box. Maybe we could. But Rome's unsupported "eyeball" estimate surely doesn't cut it.

Look, I like Rome a lot. I appreciate his cheapness too. I tend that way myself.

But numbers don't lie. Contractors may, but arithmetic is arithmetic. If you are going to make numeric claims, you need correct (or at least ballpark) numeric data. Eyeball guesses and incorrect (or never-done) arithmetic doesn't cut it when you are talking about more than a couple of dollars.

That's the truth about being cheap. You can cheap yourself into the expensive choice. I've seen it again and again, and have to remind myself not to fall prey to it, since it is my natural tendency. On this very forum, Rome himself alluded to how being cheap messed us up when we bought the original box. Being cheap is good. But you have to actually do the arithmetic with numbers that conform to reality as much as possible, or you aren't being cheap, you are just guessing.

Of course, most folks make the opposite mistake and go gold-plated, so it is good to have El Cheapo, Surley Curmudgeons like Rome around.

Heck, he might even be right. But if he is, it isn't because he knew the numbers. Sometimes you just get lucky.