I think the conflict is good. After all Switzerland had 1000 years of peace and all they contributed to civilization was the cuckoo clock. On the other hand the Romans had endless wars and conflict but gave us advancements like the aqueduct, the Senate, architecture, roads, etc.
I agree the conflict should be managed to allow more productivity.
http://www.amazon.com/Minute-Manager-Ph ... 0425098478
In the book the One Minute Manager, I think they would suggest spending 1 minute of every hour venting on each other concisely and constructively, and the other 59 minutes working on the hang gliding agenda.
Now that the election is over if we see endless conflict it can only remind me of Gregory Pecks portrayal of Captain Ahab in Moby Dick
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ZhhTDxao0[/youtube]
election results
Moderator: Chip
My first visit to Torry was very pleasant,the staff was cordial and very helpful I had a great time. Bob is just trying to clean up the mess and make things better and I support his mission It is working thing are getting better at Torrey.But Bobs got to understand that you can't force people to work with you if they don't want to.So with that said ,I think education is the key.No more mud slinging name calling and public insults on world forums by anybody,... it is counter productive.Just stick to the facts. The Hawks are Growing in numbers......Why,... because some pilots don't like the direction things are going at Torrey,when enough pilots realize whats happening through education We can just vote for the changes we want It's just a matter of time Thats the way I see it.
Torry Hawk 174
Torry Hawk 174
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Rational Discussions
Thanks Oscar, Doug, and Barton for your comments.
Brad and I differ on a few basic points as Directors:
1. Should USHPA support adding the Torrey Hawks to the Soaring Council?
The Soaring Council contains 2 local clubs (votes) representing RC pilots and yet the sports of hang gliding and paragliding must currently share ONE local club for both sports. I feel that if the RC clubs can have one club for "regular RCs" and another club for "scale model RCs", then surely the sports of hang gliding and paragliding shouldn't have to share just one local club and only one local representative. I will point out that Torrey is unlike Sylmar because none of those clubs actually operate the site. Instead, those clubs are representatives for the interests of the pilots who fly different aircraft at the Gliderport. That's why they have sailplane clubs, RC clubs, and HG/PG clubs. Unfortuntately, the sports of HG and PG have been treated as ONE sport and so we only get one local representative for both. I would ask USHPA to support the notion that those sports are NOT the same and they do NOT share the same pilots or flight characteristics. I would therefore argue that we are under-represented, and I would ask USHPA to remedy that by supporting the addition of the Hawks to represent the wing-specific interests of hang gliding pilots at Torrey Pines.
Brad disagrees with that view and opposes adding the Hawks.
2. Should USHPA have a threshold for roll call (public) voting on the Board?
I say yes. Members elect the Directors, and members have a right to know how their Directors have voted. That's the fundamental feedback path required for representative government. If the voters don't know what their elected representatives have done, then how can they cast an intelligent vote when it comes time to evaluate their Director's performance? Representative bodies from Congress all the way down to the San Diego City Council have open voting so each representative's votes can be known to the voters.
Brad disagrees with this position.
3. Should Regional Directors be able to attend USHPA Executive Committee meetings?
I say yes. It is the Board that holds the decision making authority at USHPA. The Directors on that Board are elected to represent our members. That's the structure of the organization. The Executive Committee (EC) is made up of 4 Directors who oversee USHPA during the time between Board meetings. But the EC is actually subordinate to the entire Board and the Board has a right to overturn any decisions made by the EC. So should Board members be able to attend the EC meetings to stay on top of what they are doing? I say yes.
Brad disagrees with that position.
I could go on, but these are three very rational and unemotional issues. They stand on their own merit, and we don't need any mud slinging to discuss them. I think these are worth discussing and resolving, and I think USHPA (and our sport) would be better off by adopting the suggestions that I've made. I would appreciate Brad either working with me to support these goals or providing clear reasons why he thinks these are bad ideas.
Brad and I differ on a few basic points as Directors:
1. Should USHPA support adding the Torrey Hawks to the Soaring Council?
The Soaring Council contains 2 local clubs (votes) representing RC pilots and yet the sports of hang gliding and paragliding must currently share ONE local club for both sports. I feel that if the RC clubs can have one club for "regular RCs" and another club for "scale model RCs", then surely the sports of hang gliding and paragliding shouldn't have to share just one local club and only one local representative. I will point out that Torrey is unlike Sylmar because none of those clubs actually operate the site. Instead, those clubs are representatives for the interests of the pilots who fly different aircraft at the Gliderport. That's why they have sailplane clubs, RC clubs, and HG/PG clubs. Unfortuntately, the sports of HG and PG have been treated as ONE sport and so we only get one local representative for both. I would ask USHPA to support the notion that those sports are NOT the same and they do NOT share the same pilots or flight characteristics. I would therefore argue that we are under-represented, and I would ask USHPA to remedy that by supporting the addition of the Hawks to represent the wing-specific interests of hang gliding pilots at Torrey Pines.
Brad disagrees with that view and opposes adding the Hawks.
2. Should USHPA have a threshold for roll call (public) voting on the Board?
I say yes. Members elect the Directors, and members have a right to know how their Directors have voted. That's the fundamental feedback path required for representative government. If the voters don't know what their elected representatives have done, then how can they cast an intelligent vote when it comes time to evaluate their Director's performance? Representative bodies from Congress all the way down to the San Diego City Council have open voting so each representative's votes can be known to the voters.
Brad disagrees with this position.
3. Should Regional Directors be able to attend USHPA Executive Committee meetings?
I say yes. It is the Board that holds the decision making authority at USHPA. The Directors on that Board are elected to represent our members. That's the structure of the organization. The Executive Committee (EC) is made up of 4 Directors who oversee USHPA during the time between Board meetings. But the EC is actually subordinate to the entire Board and the Board has a right to overturn any decisions made by the EC. So should Board members be able to attend the EC meetings to stay on top of what they are doing? I say yes.
Brad disagrees with that position.
I could go on, but these are three very rational and unemotional issues. They stand on their own merit, and we don't need any mud slinging to discuss them. I think these are worth discussing and resolving, and I think USHPA (and our sport) would be better off by adopting the suggestions that I've made. I would appreciate Brad either working with me to support these goals or providing clear reasons why he thinks these are bad ideas.
Last edited by Bob Kuczewski on Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
3 ideas for item#1
1) local matter/promote-conflict
I read here:
http://www.ushpa.aero/aboutus.asp
-Local club affiliation for the benefit of negotiated site insurance coverage.
...At the grassroots, USHPA members join together to form USHPA Chapters. These flying clubs represent local groups of pilots and enthusiasts that work to create and manage sites, as well as fly together in the same community spirit from which the sports have evolved. These clubs are independent, autonomous, self-governing organizations, which elect to affiliate with USHPA and obtain club benefits, such as site insurance coverage.
...The USHPA, as a private membership organization, has no governmental authority, does not own any flying sites, does not negotiate nor enter into any permits for flying sites, does not control any flying sites or the flying that takes place at them. The sports of hang gliding and paragliding are not controlled by the USHPA; anyone that wishes can fly. (The only regulatory authority for flight in the United States is the Federal Aviation Administration.)
yet they claim:
"Develop and administer programs that foster the growth of the association membership and the public acceptance of the sport."
It seems to me they have 2 conflicting goals. USHPA needs to publicly acknowledge there is or was a problem at Torrey but that it is up to local pilots to correct it and it is their duty to do so.
2) lawsuits raise dues
It looks like you have a good hand to win the lawsuit. Ushpa may need 2 lawyers to get a leg up,but the end result could be a yearly dues rate increase which is unfathomable. I would get them to let you back in and agree to refer to the EC as sir and ma'am. I would like to see California represented and not be shut out. We are a powerful state with many pilots and EC needs to respect that.
3) I sent a 3rd idea to your private email, I'm sure you already thought of it though.
1) local matter/promote-conflict
I read here:
http://www.ushpa.aero/aboutus.asp
-Local club affiliation for the benefit of negotiated site insurance coverage.
...At the grassroots, USHPA members join together to form USHPA Chapters. These flying clubs represent local groups of pilots and enthusiasts that work to create and manage sites, as well as fly together in the same community spirit from which the sports have evolved. These clubs are independent, autonomous, self-governing organizations, which elect to affiliate with USHPA and obtain club benefits, such as site insurance coverage.
...The USHPA, as a private membership organization, has no governmental authority, does not own any flying sites, does not negotiate nor enter into any permits for flying sites, does not control any flying sites or the flying that takes place at them. The sports of hang gliding and paragliding are not controlled by the USHPA; anyone that wishes can fly. (The only regulatory authority for flight in the United States is the Federal Aviation Administration.)
yet they claim:
"Develop and administer programs that foster the growth of the association membership and the public acceptance of the sport."
It seems to me they have 2 conflicting goals. USHPA needs to publicly acknowledge there is or was a problem at Torrey but that it is up to local pilots to correct it and it is their duty to do so.
2) lawsuits raise dues
It looks like you have a good hand to win the lawsuit. Ushpa may need 2 lawyers to get a leg up,but the end result could be a yearly dues rate increase which is unfathomable. I would get them to let you back in and agree to refer to the EC as sir and ma'am. I would like to see California represented and not be shut out. We are a powerful state with many pilots and EC needs to respect that.
3) I sent a 3rd idea to your private email, I'm sure you already thought of it though.
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Good points Doug!!
This is what the USHPA Chapter Application Packet states:
USHPA has failed to meet that obligation for over 2 years now.
This is what the USHPA Chapter Application Packet states:
It says right there that one of the benefits of affiliation with USHPA should be additional leverage in lobbying efforts. USHPA has a seat on the Council, so they should be using that seat to lobby to add the Hawks. Adding the Hawks does not remove any other chapters and only serves to strengthen our overall representation on the Council.USHPA Chapter Application Packet (with emphasis added) wrote:A club may choose to affiliate with the USHPA to avail itself of benefits to its activities. These benefits include:
• Liability Insurance for flying sites
• Access to USHPA’s publication resources
• Two subscriptions to Hang Gliding & Paragliding magazine, which can be sent to the community, such as your local library or university
• Access to materials for public relations projects
• Additional leverage in lobbying efforts
• Mailing labels and discounts on merchandise for club and area projects
USHPA has failed to meet that obligation for over 2 years now.
Easy on the 
-AID,sip it slowly
-AID,sip it slowly
Last edited by OSCAR on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This sucks
I get it. A bunch of guys don't like each other. I am sure at some point this all started with good intentions, but now very little of anything is coming of this, other than really bumming me out.
So can you do me a favor and fight somewhere else.
So can you do me a favor and fight somewhere else.
Re: This sucks
Totally agree with you Joseph.Joseph wrote:I get it. A bunch of guys don't like each other. I am sure at some point this all started with good intentions, but now very little of anything is coming of this, other than really bumming me out.
So can you do me a favor and fight somewhere else.
If it were up to me I'd 'boot' this barton guy off the SHGA forum for posting what is the eual of spam postings.
Just my opinion though.
Allen