I am sure most everyone is aware the Joe Greblo purchased a skip loader last year which he has been using to improve our L/Z. At his own expense with no prompting from anyone he has made our L/Z a much safer place to land and saved it from destructive storm waters at least twice.
I personally don't think this is a fair deal and would like to see if there is a consensus among the membership to purchase the equipment.
In my opinion it would be a smart acquisition. I don't think that the constant need to repair and improve our L/Z will ever go away beyond the fact that you can drive it up to launch and do work there as well. And so I hope you all will agree and vote Yes!
Greblo's Skip loader
Moderator: Chip
Yes
I presume someone has talked to Joe about his thoughts on this matter. I would like to know what Joe's thoughts are on the matter.
I strongly believe the club should pay - I absolutely HATE freeloaders
On the other hand "OP" has a very valid point - if the club owns it - who is going to take responsibility for it? Who is authorized to use it? Who is going to make/authorize repairs? You get the picture.
I strongly believe the club should pay - I absolutely HATE freeloaders
On the other hand "OP" has a very valid point - if the club owns it - who is going to take responsibility for it? Who is authorized to use it? Who is going to make/authorize repairs? You get the picture.
Windsports is not Acme Equipment Rental
To answer Don's question I have not spoken to Joe about this. When he bought the equipment it was clear to me that he was not interested in owning it long term and if the club didn't buy it he would sell it. Joe perhaps can continue with the situation as is for some time. My personal opinion is that this situation has gone on too long.
I strongly feel the right thing to do is for the club to buy it or tell him they won't buy it so he can sell it when he chooses.
As far as maintenance goes that is mostly if not totally in our lap right now anyway. This comes down to my old saying "Every solution is a problem", owning the equipment brings with it the problem of adminstering it.
I believe the benefits of owning it outweigh the burden of adminstering it.
I strongly feel the right thing to do is for the club to buy it or tell him they won't buy it so he can sell it when he chooses.
As far as maintenance goes that is mostly if not totally in our lap right now anyway. This comes down to my old saying "Every solution is a problem", owning the equipment brings with it the problem of adminstering it.
I believe the benefits of owning it outweigh the burden of adminstering it.
OK, since you asked!
My position hasn't changed since I bought it. Here it is.
I felt that the club needed the right piece of heavy equipment to give us the ability to manage the land cheaply and efficiently. I also realized that we would only rent heavy equipment if the problems were large enough, or we would wait until the repair needs were large enough to justify the rental expense. Therefore nothing less that critical ever seemed to get done.
This tactic, however, wouldn't allow us to use the strategy of improving our lz, "little by little", circumventing many of the permit issues that accompany larger scale grading projects.
For years I kept thinking, "one day when the club can afford it, we should own a tractor".
After 18 months of research, and discussions with Rob McKenzie (who bought a skip loader for the Crestline Club), the housing market and the economy collapsed and I suspected that this might be a "buyer's market" for construction equipment. I was confident that I could get a great deal on a tractor if I went to enough auctions. I waited for the largest heavy equipment auction in america, and drove up to survey nearly 30 of the recommended tractors on their line. They had everything from 500 to 7500 operating hours on the engines.
On auction day, I took Mike Hayden with me to inspect the tractors and pick out the best candidates. Mike's a 25 year, veteran heavy equipment operator for the county. At auction end, I was very happy. I had purchased the skip loader that had been recommended to me, and paid nearly $10,000.00 less than the auction price Rob McKenzie paid only a year or so before. And this tractor had only 1785 hours on it; about 1000 hours fewer than the Crestline Clubs tractor when purchased.
Now I had a tractor that I had paid for. Was I going to come back and ask the club to pay for it? I felt that was not a wise idea for three reasons. One, it wouldn't be fair to the club as they were not consulted in the purchase plans. Two, with the cost of the Gazebo Project in the works, I didn't feel the club could afford it at this point in time. And three, the tractor idea really had not yet proven itself to be a valuable enough asset to the club.
I considered these three things before I bought the tractor and I decided that I was going to buy it on my own, donate it's services and my operating time, and demonstrate to the board and club members that it was a worthwhile investment for the club consider in the future. I didn't know how long I would be able to afford this, but I was willing to give it a go. I was hopeful that within a year, the club would have it's gazebo finished and be willing to purchase the tractor from me for what I paid for it (assuming that was still a good price for the tractor).
All the time I knew I was free to offer the tractor to the club at any time, or I could sell it to see if I could recoup my investment, or possibly more. No one twisted my arm to buy the thing, no one "made me do it". Quite the contrary, I can't think of a single person, other than Rob McKenzie that thought it was a good idea.
My choice has been to keep operating the tractor and not ask anything from the club, other than fuel. So far, most of the fuel has been paid for by the club and generous member donations including at least 30 or 40 gallons from Don Banas. Recently, Malury Silberman has taken over the duties of lubricating the machine as I am reluctant to spend the time necessary to do it myself.
I still intend to do this as long as I can afford it (at least until the first anniversary of it's purchase in mid June of this year). After that, I plan to offer it to the club or try to sell it on the available market. So far I've put about 150 hours working with it and have imported more than 220 large dump trucks full of dirt. I've repaired the hang 2/3 landing area many times, graded and removed rocks, changed the course of a mighty river, ripped out oleanders, planted trees, spread topsoil, spread mulch, graded tall brush, lengthened the overshoot hill by more than 45 ft. widened it by more the 25 ft., and graded both the Hang 4 run up to the target and the Hang 4 overshoot area in the wash. I'm now in the process of widening the upper l/z by about 25 ft. to the east so pilots will be safer if turned towards the east on landing. Soon I will trade use of the skip loader for use of a back hoe that will save the club from having to rent one for digging the foundation of the Gazebo. We will also use it when we resurface our parking lot, install more lawn, spread more cow manure, grade and improve the launch site and repair the dirt road to launch.
Some of this work could have been done by renting a skip loader and hiring a guy to do it. The cost of 150 hours of tractor rental alone would be about $5,000 - $6000. Add 150 hrs for an operator and that's another $4500.00 more. Now add the cost of trucking in the dirt and the permits to do it on the schedule required for the above rates and you've got at least another $5,000.00.
As I see it, the skip loader has already more than paid for itself in the 9 months of it's use.
To the question of what does Joe want to do? Joe wants to finish what he started and either sell the skip loader to the club (if and when they decide they want it), or sell it on the open market when he can no longer afford to keep it (no sooner than June 25th). So you see nothing's changed. I'm not yet to a point that I feel the need to make that decision, but I do know that it's a personal drain and a drain on Windsports that I won't be able to afford forever.
As for future management if the club owns it. I'd like to see the board designate operating responsibility to no more than 5 responsible club members. They could split their time up to do what I've been doing on my own. I would ask as a condition of the deal that they not allow it to become an l/z toy for all the boys to play with.
Thanks for all your input and your concern.
Joe
or as Erik Fair calls me "that short uppity pilot"
My position hasn't changed since I bought it. Here it is.
I felt that the club needed the right piece of heavy equipment to give us the ability to manage the land cheaply and efficiently. I also realized that we would only rent heavy equipment if the problems were large enough, or we would wait until the repair needs were large enough to justify the rental expense. Therefore nothing less that critical ever seemed to get done.
This tactic, however, wouldn't allow us to use the strategy of improving our lz, "little by little", circumventing many of the permit issues that accompany larger scale grading projects.
For years I kept thinking, "one day when the club can afford it, we should own a tractor".
After 18 months of research, and discussions with Rob McKenzie (who bought a skip loader for the Crestline Club), the housing market and the economy collapsed and I suspected that this might be a "buyer's market" for construction equipment. I was confident that I could get a great deal on a tractor if I went to enough auctions. I waited for the largest heavy equipment auction in america, and drove up to survey nearly 30 of the recommended tractors on their line. They had everything from 500 to 7500 operating hours on the engines.
On auction day, I took Mike Hayden with me to inspect the tractors and pick out the best candidates. Mike's a 25 year, veteran heavy equipment operator for the county. At auction end, I was very happy. I had purchased the skip loader that had been recommended to me, and paid nearly $10,000.00 less than the auction price Rob McKenzie paid only a year or so before. And this tractor had only 1785 hours on it; about 1000 hours fewer than the Crestline Clubs tractor when purchased.
Now I had a tractor that I had paid for. Was I going to come back and ask the club to pay for it? I felt that was not a wise idea for three reasons. One, it wouldn't be fair to the club as they were not consulted in the purchase plans. Two, with the cost of the Gazebo Project in the works, I didn't feel the club could afford it at this point in time. And three, the tractor idea really had not yet proven itself to be a valuable enough asset to the club.
I considered these three things before I bought the tractor and I decided that I was going to buy it on my own, donate it's services and my operating time, and demonstrate to the board and club members that it was a worthwhile investment for the club consider in the future. I didn't know how long I would be able to afford this, but I was willing to give it a go. I was hopeful that within a year, the club would have it's gazebo finished and be willing to purchase the tractor from me for what I paid for it (assuming that was still a good price for the tractor).
All the time I knew I was free to offer the tractor to the club at any time, or I could sell it to see if I could recoup my investment, or possibly more. No one twisted my arm to buy the thing, no one "made me do it". Quite the contrary, I can't think of a single person, other than Rob McKenzie that thought it was a good idea.
My choice has been to keep operating the tractor and not ask anything from the club, other than fuel. So far, most of the fuel has been paid for by the club and generous member donations including at least 30 or 40 gallons from Don Banas. Recently, Malury Silberman has taken over the duties of lubricating the machine as I am reluctant to spend the time necessary to do it myself.
I still intend to do this as long as I can afford it (at least until the first anniversary of it's purchase in mid June of this year). After that, I plan to offer it to the club or try to sell it on the available market. So far I've put about 150 hours working with it and have imported more than 220 large dump trucks full of dirt. I've repaired the hang 2/3 landing area many times, graded and removed rocks, changed the course of a mighty river, ripped out oleanders, planted trees, spread topsoil, spread mulch, graded tall brush, lengthened the overshoot hill by more than 45 ft. widened it by more the 25 ft., and graded both the Hang 4 run up to the target and the Hang 4 overshoot area in the wash. I'm now in the process of widening the upper l/z by about 25 ft. to the east so pilots will be safer if turned towards the east on landing. Soon I will trade use of the skip loader for use of a back hoe that will save the club from having to rent one for digging the foundation of the Gazebo. We will also use it when we resurface our parking lot, install more lawn, spread more cow manure, grade and improve the launch site and repair the dirt road to launch.
Some of this work could have been done by renting a skip loader and hiring a guy to do it. The cost of 150 hours of tractor rental alone would be about $5,000 - $6000. Add 150 hrs for an operator and that's another $4500.00 more. Now add the cost of trucking in the dirt and the permits to do it on the schedule required for the above rates and you've got at least another $5,000.00.
As I see it, the skip loader has already more than paid for itself in the 9 months of it's use.
To the question of what does Joe want to do? Joe wants to finish what he started and either sell the skip loader to the club (if and when they decide they want it), or sell it on the open market when he can no longer afford to keep it (no sooner than June 25th). So you see nothing's changed. I'm not yet to a point that I feel the need to make that decision, but I do know that it's a personal drain and a drain on Windsports that I won't be able to afford forever.
As for future management if the club owns it. I'd like to see the board designate operating responsibility to no more than 5 responsible club members. They could split their time up to do what I've been doing on my own. I would ask as a condition of the deal that they not allow it to become an l/z toy for all the boys to play with.
Thanks for all your input and your concern.
Joe
or as Erik Fair calls me "that short uppity pilot"
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
Michael Robertson
-
JT
The Greblo has spoken (how did you slip it in before my original when it wasn't there as I started?).
I've been convinced in this last year that this would be a good investment for the club. I still believe we need to retain a responsible person for maintenance. Maybe the BOD could contract with someone in the same fashion as the storage bins; not sure what the set up would be but the club would need someone who has an interest in keeping up this piece of equipment. Otherwise, we'd have another ride-on mower.
How does CSS handle this?
I've been convinced in this last year that this would be a good investment for the club. I still believe we need to retain a responsible person for maintenance. Maybe the BOD could contract with someone in the same fashion as the storage bins; not sure what the set up would be but the club would need someone who has an interest in keeping up this piece of equipment. Otherwise, we'd have another ride-on mower.
How does CSS handle this?
Last edited by JT on Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
I voted "yes" with the implied changes suggested above:
"Yes - the club should ask Joe to submit a propsal for compensation (lease or purchase) of the equipment to the board. This request could include an effective date in the future such that it coincides with Joe's own plans for the equipment."
I think it's great that the members of the club recognize Joe's contributions and are taking concrete steps to compensate him fairly.
"Yes - the club should ask Joe to submit a propsal for compensation (lease or purchase) of the equipment to the board. This request could include an effective date in the future such that it coincides with Joe's own plans for the equipment."
I think it's great that the members of the club recognize Joe's contributions and are taking concrete steps to compensate him fairly.
-
knumbknuts
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:36 pm
Joe,
Thanks for buying the skip loader. I am looking forward to seeing your improvements.
I have 4 bits of feedback from down the 210.
1. If the club buys the skip loader, I hope it's clear that it should be for what Joe has put into it, every dime. He got a great deal and he assumed the risk that the vehicle would be sound. A sure deal on a known entity is worth more than 9 months of wear and tear, on the off chance there is someone petty enough to want to include depreciation in the club's purchase price.
2. If you sell it on the open market, I'm betting the CSS would be interested. We're pretty attached to Gracie, but you never know. We use ours quite a bit and our needs are only increasing.
3 Gene Embree, a biwingwal CSS pilot, is a skilled backhoe / dozer / skip loader operator. He cut Via Testes for us and is doing more work, shortly. We compensated him, though he volunteered his time, with a 5030. The next time we use him, we'll flat out pay him, as his work is too good and time-consuming just to be free. That having been said, I'll bet you'd get better work for less than you would anywhere else, when it comes time to lay the foundation for the gazebo. Sounds like you are set, but in case you need...
4. I have 30 days terms set up with United Rentals, if you want me to help you rent any equipment (save some paperwork), but it sounds like you are set.
Thanks for buying the skip loader. I am looking forward to seeing your improvements.
I have 4 bits of feedback from down the 210.
1. If the club buys the skip loader, I hope it's clear that it should be for what Joe has put into it, every dime. He got a great deal and he assumed the risk that the vehicle would be sound. A sure deal on a known entity is worth more than 9 months of wear and tear, on the off chance there is someone petty enough to want to include depreciation in the club's purchase price.
2. If you sell it on the open market, I'm betting the CSS would be interested. We're pretty attached to Gracie, but you never know. We use ours quite a bit and our needs are only increasing.
3 Gene Embree, a biwingwal CSS pilot, is a skilled backhoe / dozer / skip loader operator. He cut Via Testes for us and is doing more work, shortly. We compensated him, though he volunteered his time, with a 5030. The next time we use him, we'll flat out pay him, as his work is too good and time-consuming just to be free. That having been said, I'll bet you'd get better work for less than you would anywhere else, when it comes time to lay the foundation for the gazebo. Sounds like you are set, but in case you need...
4. I have 30 days terms set up with United Rentals, if you want me to help you rent any equipment (save some paperwork), but it sounds like you are set.
-
gregangsten
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am
- Location: Westchester
Of course, buy it.
If anyone had asked, I certainly would have said that getting it was a good idea. We should have bought that long before thinking about a gazebo. Postpone the gazebo if necessary but don't postpone getting the skip loader any longer. Maintaining this eroding LZ with shovels is stone-age.
Now is a great time to decide what to do
Joe might be willing to bear a burden he shouldn't but that doesn't mean we should let him do it. Nevertheless sounds like June 25th is the day he feels comfortable with.To the question of what does Joe want to do? Joe wants to finish what he started and either sell the skip loader to the club (if and when they decide they want it), or sell it on the open market when he can no longer afford to keep it (no sooner than June 25th). So you see nothing's changed. I'm not yet to a point that I feel the need to make that decision, but I do know that it's a personal drain and a drain on Windsports that I won't be able to afford forever.
For the board to make a decision they would need to vote on the June 10th board meeting, 3 months away. Sounds like a good time to work out the details rather than being ambushed by them.
2 months and ticking
Just a post to keep this thing active
-
Rome Dodson
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:42 am
-
Steve90266
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:05 pm
- Location: Manhattan Beach
- Contact:
This was on the last BOD meeting agenda. It was agreed that Joe would present a proposal detailing how a sale could be made and how the club should manage the equipment.
The primary issue there is that we really need to limit the number of people with access to the vehicle and we need to control its use such that neither the club nor Windsports is adversely affected.
With those issues addressed we should be able to proceed after the next BOD meeting.
I personally believe that this is a good use of membership monies as it returns considerable value to the membership.
Mike
The primary issue there is that we really need to limit the number of people with access to the vehicle and we need to control its use such that neither the club nor Windsports is adversely affected.
With those issues addressed we should be able to proceed after the next BOD meeting.
I personally believe that this is a good use of membership monies as it returns considerable value to the membership.
Mike
We should pay Joe the money he has into it ASAP regardless of the "management" issue. If we do nothing, Joe continues to manage the operation and is still out the money. If we buy it, Joe is not out the money but might still have to manage it until we come up with a "management plan". My concern is that we will delay the purchase until we come up with a good management plan, and who knows when that will be. I agree that we can't let just anyone jump on the tractor but I say we get Joe his money back NOW and work out the management details separately. Until then he can continue to be the sole manager of the operation but not be out the dough.
Last edited by BudRob on Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
