Short video about hand transition altitude

[JD]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ot3-sZ8-MM[/youtube]
In honor of Tony, who blew a hand transition at an unsafe altitude on Friday and nearly pounded in, I am posting this short video (from earlier on Friday) that illustrates why I now do my FINAL hand transition with enough altitude to get the glider back on course if I fumble it (which I did). While I am on my downwind leg over the wash I get overpowered by turbulence and move my left hand to the basetube for greater control authority which works. When I go to move my left hand back to the downtube I miss more than once. However, I left myself with more than enough altitude to correct for the bad hand transition. Since I have adapted to completing my final transitions at sufficient altitude I have avoided several likely broken downtubes.

Aside from the above, I do round out a little bit high and a tad slow in a gusty crosswind from the ESE. All I get is a gently dragged tip and a dropped bar but even that could have been avoided by Moon-walking this landing.

[Steve90266]

Thanks for posting, Jonathan.

[BudRob]

Jonathon makes a good point about doing hand transtions at higher altitude.
However I have found that turning to final with both hands on the downtubes does not allow enough pitch authority to maintain sufficient speed to make corrections if I get popped up or hit with something wierd and get knocked off course.

I used Jonathan's landing technique for many years but have recently changed. Now I keep one hand on the base tube through the final turn, allowing me to pull in further and keep my speed higher on final approach. I make the final transition only after allowing the glider to come to trim speed, which does in fact result in a late hand transition.

Jonathan's point of an early final hand transition has its merits and I did it for years for the very reason he quotes. But now I believe the resulting slow final to be a greater risk than "missing" the downtube with a late hand trasition. Missing the transition might result in a whack; but not maintaining speed on final can result in something much worse.

I would like to thank Phil Bloom for convincing me to make this change BEFORE I had any real reason to regret it. Old farts like me don't easily change things that have worked for years but I believe his logic to be sound. After all, how many times have you seen Phil blow a landing?

Rob

[OP]

I've seen every david aldrich and NME video on the web.

If it makes a difference from my casual opinion... Same as when taking off... stay up right , with your hands in a low position.

It seems that too many take offs and landing botches are caused by an early and late position from/to prone.

Aldrich had many good landings with a low turn to final until one day a small hand slip ended up with an awesome whack. Hopefully he learned to enter his pattern with room for error.

My goal from watching his video is... to be set up as early as possible. I don't want a last minute hand change to compromise my landing.

Greblo recommends you fly upright until your first topped out thermal. And begin your observation of the LZ with your body upright.

That is do everything you can to maximize your safety. Anything less is negligent.

[JD]

............now I believe the resulting slow final to be a greater risk than "missing" the downtube with a late hand trasition. Missing the transition might result in a whack; but not maintaining speed on final can result in something much worse..............

Rob - I agree with everything you state. Landing a topless with the VG off and both hands low on the downtubes then getting hit by a very strong gust will likely result in the glider zooming up pretty badly due to the lack of pitch authority from this hand grip position. It's also impossible to pull on and hold nearly as much speed with both hands on the DTs vs one up and one down.

The other day you saw me over by Brown Mountain thermalling in the full-upright landing position. I now do this in order to develop the muscles in my chest, arms and shoulders needed to pull the nose down in what is otherwise and extremely unnatural position with my arms spread wide and hands turned down and around my streamlined downtubes. I have now been doing this enough that when I did get blasted by a very strong gust at Andy Jackson a few weeks ago, I was able to wrestle the glider back on track and do a clean landing. Had I not already spent a few hours over many flights thermalling in turbulence in the hands-low landing position it would have been a very different outcome.

Even at trim speed I have blown too many hand transitions so if I ever come in with one hand down and one up, that's how I'll be landing the glider. It will likely be gusty and I won't fully flare but will just run out the landing if I'm over smooth terrain.

On a Falcon this is not an issue. With its round downtubes and long cord, it's easier to control the pitch and does not pitch up anywhere near as severely as a topless glider with VG off.

[noack]

Im still so green I transition at the bridge

[jcflies]

happy landings to everyone!

[BudRob]

I didn't state so in my first post but yes, I believe in being fully upright even before the turn to final. The ONLY transition I do late is to move the one hand up after slowing to trim speed.

For those prone to missing the downtube on the first try, or not knowing where trim speend is, the method I describe may not give you the best result. If you don't miss and you do know, then I believe it will.

Jonathon makes a good point about the differences between a Falcon and a Litespeed on final approach. It has been a long time since I flew a Falcon but he is correct in that there is still plenty of pitch athority with both hands on the downtubes with this glider - probably no need to risk a last minute hand transition on this glider.

Eveyone should make their own choice on how to land after doing all the research they can and hearing opinions from those who have done it a lot. For many years I landed differently than I do now and never got into any real trouble; but I feel better about the way I land now with the glider I have. But that's just me.

Rob

[JD]

Sorry JC but I quoted your original post before you edited it...........

And begin your observation of the LZ with your body upright............

..............I've watched every vid I can find of Kraig Coomber, Jonny Durand, NZ pilot John Smith, Mitch McAleer..........

1 - OP might want to change his moniker to OB for Over-Board, which might better reflect some of his topic replies.
2 - 99% of the 'trick landing' videos I've watched were done in smooth air, regardless of the wind velocity.

Greblo taught me to do the following when I'm in the 'Danger Zone'
B - Body upright
L - hands Low on the downtubes
E - Eyes on the numbers (landing line, launch target, etc.)
S - Speed as chosen by YOU to avoid stalling in the turbulence that YOU forecast.

As one of the most prolific producers of hang gliding videos and most accomplished breakers of downtubes on the planet, I'm here to tell you that ALL videos are deceptive and misleading, regardless of whether the videographer and editor ever intended to deceive or mislead you or not. It is wholly irrelevant. By their very nature, all video and film for that matter is illusory and creates a false impression in the mind and imagination of the viewer.

I didn't accumulate over 361 hours of flying time in the past 21 months after my 26-year hiatus without learning a thing or two.

Here's one of few things I learned along the way: Be aware of your surroundings.

[abinder]

Im still so green I transition at the bridge

Nothing wrong with that.


Allen

[Bob Kuczewski]

Greblo taught me to do the following when I'm in the 'Danger Zone'
B - Body upright
L - hands Low on the downtubes
E - Eyes on the numbers (landing line, launch target, etc.)
S - Speed as chosen by YOU to avoid stalling in the turbulence that YOU forecast.

Me too.

Im still so green I transition at the bridge

Me too as well (or at least I transition by the time I start circling down to enter the pattern).

But there are a lot of people who wait much longer and I would like to hear from Master Joe about that. I like going upright early for many of the reasons Joe suggests - including getting used to flying in that orientation for a little while before the actual landing. Also, if you're really pulled in for speed (which seems to be the main argument for staying on the base tube), doesn't that mean that you're holding a lot of bar pressure? And won't that bar pressure always induce some kind of attitude change (proportional to the "switch time") when you release it to change hands?

Of course, I've never flown a really high performance glider, so maybe these assertions aren't true in that case. I would like to hear Joe's thoughts on this. For now, I'm still on the "upright early" side of the fence.

[JD]

...........For now, I'm still on the "upright early" side of the fence.

Yes Bob - Unless a pilot is driven more by vanity or by gliding an extra 42 feet in order to just make goal in a big contest than by safety, I suggest that pilot stick with changing his hands well before entering the danger zone.

On Friday my zipper broke just after launch and my zipper pull-up line AND my zipper pull-down line BOTH got wrapped around my ankles when I vainly tried to rotate upright during my landing approach. I was roughly 125' AGL when this occurred and the 1.3 seconds I spent farting around playing Houdini and trying to free my legs caused me to make my base leg turn too late and I nearly missed the LZ at AJX altogether. I still landed safely but that doesn't justify leaving myself with only a 2.6 second margin for error now does it? I used up the entire margin for error and had NOTHING left over. What does that suggest to you?

When I came back to this sport, Greblo warned me about comp pilot's launch habits of rotating immediately after launch and advised that the question was not IF but WHEN they'll get turned back into the hill by turbulence. The same holds true for 'SHOWY" looking landings.

BTW - I make no pretenses of setting a good example with everything I do. I am not an instructor but a demonstrator. Not everything I demonstrate is something YOU want to be doing.

[BudRob]

Also, if you're really pulled in for speed (which seems to be the main argument for staying on the base tube), doesn't that mean that you're holding a lot of bar pressure? And won't that bar pressure always induce some kind of attitude change (proportional to the "switch time") when you release it to change hands?

Bob - Please read my second post. I do NOT advocate going upright at the last minute, only the final hand change. You do not need to be prone to maintain good speed on final as long as ONE hand is on the basetube.
Also note that I state the hand change does not occur until the glider has slowed to trim speed for the very reason you state - to avoid a sudden attitude change.

This is probably NOT the best option for entry or intermediate gliders since they do not seem to have the pitch control problem of a topless glider with the VG off. It is difficult to pull in to maintain speed on a Litespped so I find that keeping one hand on the base tube through to final is a better option than coming in too slow.

If you do not have problems maintaining speed on final with both hands on the down tubes, I suggest you stick with that early hand transition that Jonathon makes the point about in his original post so as to avoid any last minute changes.

Rob

[Bob Kuczewski]

On Friday my zipper broke just after launch ...

Thanks, I've had some harness problems as well, and you're right that it's best to get them sorted out well before entering the landing pattern!! Going upright early helps to enforce that good habit.

Rob, if you're suggesting that people do the last hand transition at trim speed, that opens them up to missing that hand transition in turbulent conditions. It also further complicates one of the most complicated moments of a flight. Also, if the hands are already low on both uprights, it seems that should provide a lot of leverage for speed. But again, I don't fly the kinds of high performance gliders that you do, and so I'll concede that I'm out of my league in that domain.

[BudRob]

Bob,

I am only sharing what works best for me and other high performance glider pilots. I don't remember the last time I missed a hand transition but I sure as hell remember the slow approaches I could do nothing about with both hands on the downtubes.

Again, this problem appears to be unique to high performance gliders.

Rob

[JD]

................if the hands are already low on both uprights, it seems that should provide a lot of leverage for speed. But again, I don't fly the kinds of high performance gliders that you do........

Bob - I concur with everything BudRob has to say on the topic. Especially regarding to the difficulty in keeping the nose down on a high performance glider with the hands low on the downtubes.

In this video I miss a hand transition but at a safe altitude but I can barely pull the nose down on my Sport 2 155 with my hands on the downtubes.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shrk37LsVtQ[/youtube]

In this video I finally learned to do my hand transition right at trim speed and in ground effect. Note the difference to the preceding video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDC3KhT2V_g[/youtube]

On a Falcon it's a non-issue. It's easy to pull the nose down with the hands low on the base bar. I could launch, fly XC then land a Falcon without ever taking my hands off the low on the downtube position. As one progresses upward to double surface gliders it gets increasing difficult to hold the nose down by simply holding the downtubes down low. It becomes increasingly necessary to employ additional leverage. And that comes from having one or both hands on the basetube. This means it's necessary to do a hand transition and some point either before or after the danger zone.

Note the landing approach on my Falcon in this video beginning at 6 min..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boHT5T9fw0E[/youtube]

[abinder]

It's actually really nice seeing a lot of input from different people on hand postitions and the transitioning of the hand positions during the landing. It helps people to realize that not one type of transition period works for all types of gliders.

Really nice input.

Allen

[stebbins]

I'm really confused. From low on the downtubes, I find it easier to pull in significantly on a topless glider than a Falcon. Of course, one-up, on-down is easier still on any glider.

And from a purely theoretical perspective, the lighter pitch pressure on a topless would seem to make it easier than the stronger pitch pressure on a Falcon.

And why would it be easier from the basetube if low on the downtubes is hard? Your hands are in almost the same place (assuming your hands are widely spaced, and not close to the middle of the basetube.)

I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm just trying to figure it out, because it seems to contradict both my experience and the theoretical physics of the thing.

But then, I've been flying the Falcon lately when I can fly at all, so what do I know.

[OSCAR]

George said: And why would it be easier from the basetube if low on the downtubes is hard? Your hands are in almost the same place (assuming your hands are widely spaced, and not close to the middle of the basetube.)

I would have to say it's easier from the basetube because your using different muscle groups & you can lock (Stiffarm) your arm or arms after you push the basetube back. From the down tubes Pulling back it's impossible to lock your arms and your arms will tire quickly. Unless your using that cloud escape technique I use I lock both arms in a grapevine grip around the front of the downtubes and if I need more down input I move my hands higher "up" the downtubes. I can hold this position for a long time without tiring.

[JD]

.............from a purely theoretical perspective, the lighter pitch pressure on a topless..............

And why would it be easier from the basetube if low on the downtubes is hard? Your hands are in almost the same place (assuming your hands are widely spaced, and not close to the middle of the basetube.).........

Couple of things about pitch pressure:
I land my T2 and T2C with the VG somewhere between 1/4 full off. Not only is the pitch pressure equal to, or considerably greater on my T2s than my Falcon from 28 through 50 MPH, but the T2s have a tendency to porpoise up hard at the slightest provocation whereas the Falcon lacks that tendancy.

As far as the downtube vs basebar question:

1 - The arms produce far more power with the hand gripping a straight bar than with the hands and wrists in a contorted position grasping at streamlined downtubes.

2 - I keep my hands on the speed bar section of the base tube or much more cloasely spaced than on the downtubes. The difference in mechanical ability to pull in is huge. Combining that with the increased arm power, it's no contest.

Hands on the downtubes on a T2 with VG at 1/4 or less yields only a fractional degree of pitch authority and a compromised roll authority. This opinion comes from over 250 hours of T2 flying in a 17-month period.