circling in tiny lift

[msoultan]

I was in a really small thermal/slope lift over at towers and I had to circle really tight to stay in it. Someone else then came across the gap and I was pretty sure they wouldn't be able to find anything else than what I was in because I had been there for the past 30 minutes just scraping by. I felt bad because I was barely gaining much altitude, but that tiny bit of lift was keeping me afloat.

Now, since this area of lift was so small, I gathered it would have been much too dangerous for two people to circle in that tight a space so close to the terrain. However, I felt bad because I knew that he wasn't going to find lift anywhere else. Sure enough, he tried a couple other spots and then sunk out and went back to the LZ.

What would you do? While I don't want to be greedy, I did get there first and if I give up that lift, I'll most likely sink out. It's always a gamble when crossing over to towers that there won't be any lift (whether there are other people in it or not), but I just felt kinda bad about it and did apologize to the other pilot.

Thanks,
Mike

[Don]

I don't see anything in your description that implies anything you did wrong! You imply that you should have done something to tell the other pilot there was lift - you did! You were circling! Other than that what else could you have done? Called them on the phone? Gone over to them and tap them on the shoulder? What?

If the other pilot (maybe me) saw you it was their choice not to attempt to join you. If they did join you it was their responsibility to do it safely - although what is safe to one person may not have been viewed safe by yourself. Chances are the other pilot would not have been able to "work the lift" (unless it was Rob Burgis who I watched do some amazing things on Sunday) and would have left.

Glad to hear it worked out for you. As for me - I went to Locals and that was the start of the end. A somewhat depressing pattern.

[msoultan]

I felt bad because I was circling so tight that it really wouldn't have been possible for the other pilot to join... that or it would have made me feel very uncomfortable, and I would have left. In other words, am I supposed to always accommodate another pilot that wants to join the thermal?

[OP]

Lucky for us all we can be like Newton "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."

Greblo, may he bless us from the sky, has written good words on the subject:

http://blog.rodbailey.com/archives/86-H ... reblo.html

For a quick summary: If you are first there, you set the pattern.
However always fly predictable and obvious around traffic.

I may add that even on top of the stack i still look at those below to help center the thermal.

[Jim]

Sounds a bit like crocodile tears to me.

If another pilot wants in your thermal and he can't get in at your level or above, he can come in under and climb through you, if he's that good.
THEN it would be your responsibility to get out of his way, not before.

Besides, your supposed to be flying with a pink streamer and anyone coming near you does so with your skill level in mind, right?

[jcflies]

if you were barely able to climb in a tight thermal close to the terrain for 30 minutes, why woud any reasonably intelligent pilot WANT to come join you?

wtf?

[JD]

I was in a really small thermal/slope lift over at towers and I had to circle really tight to stay in it. Someone else then came across the gap and I was pretty sure they wouldn't be able to find anything else than what I was in because I had been there for the past 30 minutes just scraping by.....

Here's your birthday gift Mike.
Many times I have seen a pilot scratch in one place in weak lift as another pilot hits a nearby spot, climbs out and flies off leaving the scratch-pilot where he started. You may have been marking an area to avoid without realizing it. I have been in that spot many times. It's the nature of the beast.

Rob McKenzie has a nice tutorial on thermalling etiquette: http://flytandem.com/etiquet.htm

Here's an example of three adjacent thermal cores and three pilots merging into one core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGWmxFp9_cw&t=7m42s

[msoultan]

Well, that's the thing, there was no other spot to go, so it was sink or swim (I was swimming hard). He actually came across the dam about 400ft above me and then ended up sinking below me. I was making little gains, so I felt that I could make some headway, but it was slow.

Now, as to why I was there so long..... I was optimistic that I could keep working it because I was skeptical that I'd find another thermal and I didn't want to land. But like I mentioned before, I just felt bad that I was circling so tight and really wasn't letting him in, and if I did (I believe), I would have lost the lift - in other words, I didn't feel that there was enough room for two. Now, maybe that's true... or I have poor thermalling skills, that's up for debate, but that was my decision at the time and I wanted to know if I was supposed to accommodate the other pilot or if he was just outta luck due to minimal lift.

Now, if I go by OP's linked thermalling rules:

But what if you want to enter a thermal already occupied by another pilot?

Rule #1. HE HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY.

Rule #2. HE HAS PRIORITY OVER AIRSPACE WITHIN HIS PROJECTED CIRCULAR PATH AT AND NEAR HIS ALTITUDE.

Rule #3. IT'S YOUR JOB TO ENTER HIS THERMAL IN A SAFE AND COURTEOUS MANNER.

According to the above, I had right of way, had priority, and if he wanted to enter, he could have tried, but it probably wouldn't have been very safe (in my opinion), and it would have probably forced me to leave because I wouldn't have felt safe given the circumstances and terrain proximity. If I remember correctly, Joe has said to me before is that if you join a thermal, or even fly by someone thermalling, you don't want to do anything that's going to force them to alter their course. I don't want to be a stinker, but I also don't want to sink out either...

Ultimately, I really just trying to learn proper soaring etiquette and understand the right-of-way rules so that I'm flying as safe and as friendly as possible. I guess I didn't really do anything wrong, but it never feels good to see someone else sink out when they're trying to stay up, but I guess it's also his risk to make the journey across and hope for lift.

I appreciate all of the input!

[dhmartens]

Sometimes I make a special effort to climb up to make room, Being efficient or stick thermalling in the strongest part. But that can make you sink out too.
It sounds like you have good awareness. That's a great Greble article too.

Doug

[msoultan]

Jonathan,
You could be right about me marking a bad spot... I totally could have been doing that, but the other guy was flying along the ridge and would go around me on each pass and kept sinking lower and lower, so it was kinda obvious that there wasn't much else around.

As far as multiple people thermalling in this spot, I think it would have been risky. It's kinda like when you're scratching down at the third bowl, lift is really close to the slope, and you're below ridge height... it's risky just to circle due to being pushed into the ridge. Maybe some pilots will join up with someone that's circling really tight in that location, but so far I've never seen anyone do it and that's a risk that I'm not willing to take.

That said, Hungary Joe came in waaaaay above and stayed up there, so I'm sure skill (or lack thereof) kept me at the lower altitudes

[JD]

....I don't want to be a stinker, but I also don't want to sink out either...

As long as you aren't blocking the launch ramp or the path away from launch or the landing approach or pattern then thermal away in good conscience.

[msoultan]

Besides, your supposed to be flying with a pink streamer and anyone coming near you does so with your skill level in mind, right?

I got my H3! But I've still got *PLENTY* to learn!