Some questions about the pavilion project

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TomS
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Some questions about the pavilion project

Post by TomS »

What was the original proposed cost for the pavilion construction?
How much has been spent to date?
How much is the project over budget and how much additional money is needed to finish the project?
Where is the additional money going to come from?
Are there plans for additional "features" to the pavilion that the rank and file members do not know about?
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phkao
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Post by phkao »

I can give thoughts to the last question since the subject was brought up in the September Board Meeting. Because it got heated and one person was chastised for his actions, I ‘d like to describe what happened.

Towards the end of the meeting, discussion of the roof came up. Should we do skylights or not and what is the benefit of having them? Joe Greblo and Jim Thompson collaborated that the skylights would help air circulation of the space. Greg Angsten asked (don’t quote me on the exact words), why we need them when we have airflow all around coming in. Robert asked if there is a future plan to enclose the space into rooms. Without hesitation, Joe and Jim admitted that there was such a plan. Robert expressed that spending so much money on a cable railing system was senseless if rails would be removed and walls built in the foreseeable future. He then brought up that the gazebo was already well over budget and we shouldn’t be wasting money this way.

Having been told that it was a painful experience to obtain the building permit for the current gazebo plan, I asked the Board what the chance would be to get another building permit to turn the gazebo into a walled structure. Joe and Jim implied that the walls would be built after the gazebo passes its final inspection and gains the certificate of occupancy and there was no intention for getting another permit. I was shocked to hear such a response. Joe proceeded to further inform me about several things that the club had done to the property that should have had permits but were done without any. Robert then asked, “Are you trying to tell us that the walls will be built without a permit?� Joe responded, “Yes�. The impression I got was that, in their minds, it wouldn’t be a big deal to add another item on the “unpermitted� list.

It was getting really late and the conversation was getting really heated. Jim then tried to take control of the meeting by saying, “Let’s move on! I don’t know how we got onto this topic anyway.� The belittlement sent Robert a notch up, he then replied, “It was you two who brought it up when you mentioned the airflow and it was Greg who asked why.�

To think that one would suggest and be willing to push an idea that involves illegal actions is disconcerting. Carrying it through with the club’s money brings on another issue.

In the past, I had several friends and family members who came for help to “legalize� their “unpermitted� structures after the fact. One of them was our own club member. Another one of them did not even build anything; they bought a property that had a few “illegal� structures on it. Nobody could predict whether or not the unpermitted structure would be reported and when it would be reported. We would be running the same risk if the club decided to build things unpermitted, not to mention that it would be morally unacceptable by a lot of club members.

In terms of the gazebo budget, I would not say that we are now over the budget. In stead, I would put it this way that a realistic budget was never established since the beginning of the project and the members were never made clear that the budget presented to them throughout the process was only a wishful thinking. With that said, how could the Board expect the members to fork out money to build the cable railings that would only be removed for building some “unpermitted� walls and to take the chance that more money would have to be put in to either “undo/redo� what has been built/demolished to its original state, or try to “legalize� the enclosure at the cost that we have absolutely no control.

I encourage all members to start going to the Board Meetings. It is also important that you start to speak your mind.
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dhmartens
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Post by dhmartens »

I was reading through some of the gazebo posts posted over the years. Some of the construction costs might be allocated to "Conditional Use Permit/Site Preservation"

Joeseph Vandertol posted: "The successful permitting and construction of this Gazebo proves we have valid use of our land because it is impossible to obtain permit without a valid use. Constructing the permitted facility is objective factual proof of our valid use."

I had posted: "preserve the flying site for Hang Gliding use" is the #1 responsibility listed in: BoardResponsibilities.pdf"


Another factor in cost is changes in the CPI Consumer Price Index and PPI Producer Price Index, if it has taken 6 years to build and The Government reports between 3% to 5% inflation per year then it is possible inflation has added 10% to 20% to the original estimates.

When I was at Rockwell Intl all of their purchase orders had stamped on the back there was no legal recourse for an(industry standard) 20% cost overrun.

A great deal of volunteer work hours has been donated to the construction, this could be added up to show how much we actually saved through cost cutting.

I wonder if Bamboo Balcony Blinds can be installed as retractable walls.
JBBenson
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Post by JBBenson »

I think they were rhetorical questions......

I am reminded of how often people snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
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Busto
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Post by Busto »

So far we have spent eighty-three thousand dollars on a project that was expected to be completed on a much lower cost. At the moment, we do not have enough money to finish it with the details that are desired. Lending has been offered to finish it sooner than later. The cost to finish it is still up in the air.

The price that was given to us in January was forty-five thousand dollars. I do not see any one trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We don't expect victory, we are just trying to cross the finish line.
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Post by TomS »

The questions were not rhetorical.
Thank you for some answers, Robert and Pi-Hsuan.
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Don
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Future Projects

Post by Don »

Tom,

I suspect that WHEN the railings and roof are completed there will be a huge collective sigh of relief. This project has been building for ~5 years and some people have been dreaming of this for even longer. I doubt anyone is going to want to continue building after the roof is in place - at least not in the immediate future.

As for money - it is my understanding that the club's finances have been reduced significantly but cash is still available. Also, the club currently operates at a reasonable surplus. What this means is that by the time the Railings Committee submits a proposal that is accepted by the Board - money is available to proceed. Then, when the Board approves a plan for the roof - money is/will be available. As previously mentioned, at least one individual has offered to loan the Club the necessary money, at a very reasonable interest rate, to facilitate the completion of the project IF NEEDED. I also believe that if circumstances were to arise, there are numerous individuals in this club that could loan or donate to the club, money to cover completion of this project or cover any unexpected emergency.

As for the original budget - back in May '09 someone registered as "JT Guest" said the original SWAG was $40k - $45k. A later post indicated a more specific SWAG for material and labor was $72k - I don't think that included a roof.
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Busto
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Post by Busto »

Someone from the board should reply to the questions. From my understanding, it was going to be about forty-five thousand dollars.

Damn, I should have taken more interest in the project in the beginning, but from my understanding, it was doing just fine untill recently.

Let's hope that you are right about the walls. A permit should be obtained...In fact required.

If the budget is good, why would borrowing be brought up at the club meeting?

We are bringing a positive cash flow, but that should be going into the reserve. Instead we are borrowing to finish a project that was supposed to be under fifty thousand.

Many people have mentioned using a canvas. I think that is a great short term solution. When we save enough money, when we know we can pay for it and only then should we build a roof.

Stop the spending, borrowing and rushing.

Why? Why do we need to move at the pace we are trying to move?

Rob, Ken ...anyone on the board?
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dhmartens
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Post by dhmartens »

I think we are moving at this speed, because, like in football, we were stuck down inside our own 5 yard line for years. Finally a running back breaks through and has a clear shot all the way to the goal line and a touchdown. That running back runs as fast as he can.

I also think the temporary roof solution would just add another $1,000 to the total cost in the long run.

I know not everyone voted for this Pavilion and it must be painful to see this whole thing, another reason to complete it now. Like at the dentist when they pull a tooth, its better for the patient if they do it quick and not do it painfully slow.

There have been various votes along the way, some online, some by mail.
I don't know the merits of delaying until we save up a buffer fund. I think there are emergency lines of credit that make it unnecessary.

In war the first casualty is the battle plan.

I imagine the board's immediate focus is making sure the roof beams are bolted down properly.
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Don
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My Feelings

Post by Don »

There never was a firm budget. As time progressed the real cost became clearer and clearer. Actual cost to date ~ $83k versus the $72k I noted above is actually pretty close considering the actual cost to date includes design fees, permits, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think anyone is "rushing". Considering that construction started about March / April - it has been about 6 months. A lot of people donated a lot of their time and physical labor to make this a reality.

As for taking our time - it is important to finish the project. God forbid we let the permit expire without completion. An unfinished project (blue tarps) is nothing but an eyesore.

As for the comment about surplus money should go to reserves - I totally don't understand that comment :? - How does someone determine how much should be in "reserves"? If all surpluses went to reserves then there would never be money to finish the project - or anything else for that matter.

Everyone has a right to comment - Busto, like you said earlier, you should have gotten involved earlier - like 5 years ago. At this point I think you should step aside and let the people that are actually doing something finish the job! The project has clearly cost significantly more than the earliest SWAGs but I fail to see any financially material errors in judgement or decisions.
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phkao
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Post by phkao »

Don,

My skills have brought me into the club. I will answer all of your questions in time and give an opinion the club members deserve. I am still finding out the facts myself.

As for Robert, he can speak for himself.

Nobody wanted to stop the project but a lot of questions were out there regarding how we got to this point.

I have no problem meeting you or anyone else in the LZ to talk abut this matter.

Sincerely,
Pi-Hsuan
Last edited by phkao on Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Andrews
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Post by Ken Andrews »

Thanks for your questions and interest, and I apologize for the slow reply; I've been out of town the last couple days without Internet access.
What was the original proposed cost for the pavilion construction?


In June of 2007, ballots were mailed to all SHGA members, and they were asked to vote for one of three sketches. The results were overwhelmingly in favor of the most elaborate and expensive option, which had a rough cost estimate of $30,000 - $40,000. This estimate was based on materials costs at the time, and it assumed that virtually all of the construction (except concrete finishing and welding) would be done by volunteers in the club.

Based on this vote, the board embarked on the complex voyage through architectural and engineering design, zoning and permits. That board, and each subsequent board, found that the voyage was longer and harder than we had ever anticipated, but after four years of work, we arrived early this year with a set of construction plans and all the necessary city approval stamps. Among many others, we are especially grateful to Jim Thompson and Joe Greblo for all their work.
How much has been spent to date?


Katherine Yardley, our SHGA Treasurer, just sent me the current numbers (thanks, Katherine!). To date, we have spent $83,227.95. By far the biggest single expense was $63,313.59 to Nootenboom Construction Company for contractor services and materials. Of the $83K total, about $42.0K was spent on labor (to Steve Nootenboom and his crew), about $25.4K on materials (mostly purchased by Nootenboom, some by SHGA), about $7.7K on permits and fees, about $5K for the architect and engineer, and about $3K of other expenses.
How much is the project over budget and how much additional money is needed to finish the project?


By subtracting the above numbers, I guess we're $43,227.95 over budget, though that doesn't account for inflation between 2007 and 2011. The overrun pretty much matches what we paid for labor, because we failed to find the volunteers within the club that the early cost estimates had depended on. As the absence of contractor volunteers gradually became clear, the board had a tough choice to make: we could either scrap the last four years of work and start over with a simpler design, or we could hire a general contractor. After much debate, we finally chose to hire Steve Nootenboom, with an unusual contract in which the club would still volunteer a lot of the labor. We are deeply indebted to the club members who provided that labor, including Rob Burgis, Chris Armenta, George Boswell, Dan Barley, and many, many more. Thank you all.

To finish the project, we need to build a roof, a railing, and a handicap access ramp with its surrounding landscaping. We don't yet have estimates for what these will cost. The board has appointed a railing committee to put together a detailed railing design and cost estimate. The railing cost will depend primarily on the cost of stainless steel turnbuckles and fittings, which in turn depends on the desired aesthetics and cleverness in design. We are also considering options and cost estimates for the roof. Cost on this will depend hugely on whether we can find club members who are willing to volunteer their time to do the work. Until we have a railing design, roof design, and workforce identified, we don't have cost estimates, and cannot proceed with the work. Members who can help with these projects are greatly needed; keeping the remaining cost down depends upon them.
Where is the additional money going to come from?


The club still has savings of about $12,700, and this will grow with time, primarily due to income from glider storage. We could wait and finish the construction on whatever schedule our immediate finances allow, but it sure would be nice to finish the project. A couple club members have generously offered the club low- or no-interest loans to get through our current shortfall.
Are there plans for additional "features" to the pavilion that the rank and file members do not know about?
In addition to what is already built, the plans call for a roof, a railing, and some landscaping with a handicap access ramp. Beyond that, there are lots of things it would be nice to have. We'll add them as club interest, volunteer effort, and finances allow. Finishing the storage spaces with glider storage racks, doors, and harness storage bins would be nice. Lighting and some electric outlets would help. So would a little plumbing for a sink or washtub, maybe even a drinking fountain.

Members submitted ideas for a wish list back in 2007, and some other popular ideas included a kitchen area, walls or some way to enclose a space for those cold and rainy days, genuine flush toilets, and the list goes on. Each of these, like walls for example, would involve a lot of discussion among the club as a whole, probably is several years away at a minimum, and would be built in whatever way the members choose at the time. Right now, we're merely trying to preserve options; in the future, what happens will be determined by what the club wants.
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gregangsten
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plans

Post by gregangsten »

I want to add that although some people have talked about the possibility of someday walling off one of the sections, this is not some secret plan that we are instigating once the inspector drives away. Right now it is simply Fantasyland and if it ever happened it wouldn't be for a long time and would have to be approved by the board after a lot of discussion. Personally, I think it would be a bad idea.
TomS
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Post by TomS »

Thank you all for your responses. I have learned a lot. I should have paid better attention from the beginning.
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JD
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Post by JD »

TomS wrote:Thank you all for your responses. I have learned a lot. I should have paid better attention from the beginning.
Tom, I'm glad you asked from a neutral perspective. I am a relative newcomer to the club and the gazebo project pre-dates me. I have learned a lot from this thread as well. I'm glad that club members have offered interest-free loans to expedite completion of the gazebo. I also appreciate the vast efforts of our club volunteers. :D :D
Cheers, Jonathan
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Busto
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Post by Busto »

Thank you Ken!

I think with communication like that, we could have cut the losses down quite a bit, but it is what it is. Ken and I have talk passionately about our positions and understand that there is nothing we can do, but I wanted the club to look at where we are and how, with everyone’s involvement, finish the gazebo without borrowing.

I was originally going to write a story on what has taken place for the last five years. One day I was in the LZ and Joe and I were talking about hang gliding. Somehow we got onto the topic of the gazebo. He mentioned that he was willing to lend the club twenty thousand dollars with a low interest rate. I was surprised that we were at this point. I started to look into it, to look for the reason of why we were at the point of borrowing so much money. By day three I had gathered enough information to believe there was a conspiracy…kidding. I did find enough information to realize that the club was unaware of the amount of money that has been spent and with the help of my wife, realize that the cost could have been reduced in many ways.

Don mentioned that I should step aside and let the people that are actually doing something finish the Job.

Since my conversation with Joe in the LZ three months ago, I have spent my time informing others of the cost and that they should come to the meeting and get involved. I have gone to two of the last three meetings and Pi-hsuan has gone to all three. She is on the rail committee and is pressing the issue of why we need an engineer to approve the detail. I am trying to work with a friend in Mariposa to give a cost on the roof and try to influence him to come down and do it, since he does it for a living. However, it is a favor and favors are hard to get anyone to commit to. I’m sure an estimate is possible.

I know that I have not been there from the beginning, but I was under the impression that it was well under control.

Don is right, there was a price for the foundation alone for 72k back in June 09, but if he reads farther down. It mentions that it could be reduced to 50k by building the stem walls with 8� concrete block. Nothing convinced me that 72k could not be renegotiated.

January 2011 mentions 45k with direction and help. There was nothing that was certain in cost.

To answer Don’s last request, the answer is no. I will not step aside and I will do my best to give information that is useful.

Ken has agreed with me that there was not enough information to account for where we are on cost.

Let's fly!
Last edited by Busto on Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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phkao
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Post by phkao »

Ken,

Thank you for the detailed information.

Based on the Nootenboom Construction Company’s cost breakdown, it turned out to be a one-third / two-thirds for the materials and the labor. The industry accepts using 45% of the total construction cost to determine the materials cost. Since Nootenboom Construction Company has gotten a deal that was better than the average, the club’s volunteering effort was truly a noble gesture to the contractor. I am wondering if the construction contract could be made available for me to review as part of my research of this project, only because from the past meeting minutes and the recent discussions in the Board Meeting, there seemed to be some scopes left out of the contract and some expected favors written in. I am curious.

Could you please also briefly explain the history of the CUP requisition?

Don,

I thought in one of the Board Meetings, 15K was decided to be kept as the reserves. We are below the level and the project was only 1/3 done. Has this goal been changed recently?

Sincerely,
Pi-Hsuan
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Don
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I know nothing!

Post by Don »

I know nothing of any decision to keep $15k for reserves. I don't bother to attend board meetings and I'm not sure the minutes are readily available (member's only section) for review.
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Ken Andrews
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Brief history of the CUP story

Post by Ken Andrews »

Our contract with Nootenboom Construction Company doesn't lend itself to simple percentage calculations, for it involved several modifications, amendments, and renegotiations along the way. We can study the details off-line if you wish. But rather than rehashing this stuff, I think our time would be better spent designing railings and a roof. No matter how acute one's hindsight, one can't change the past. I'd rather look forward, and I think it's more valuable to the club.

At board meetings, there has been brief discussion about keeping some reserves, but no number has been selected or voted upon. And yes, meeting minutes are available in the Members Area of the website.
Could you please also briefly explain the history of the CUP requisition?
I'll do the best I can, but it's hard to be brief since it's a long and complex story.

One might think that you should be able to do what you want on land that you own; and in sufficiently rural parts of this country, you can. But in most places, one has neighbors, and cities have zoning laws to reduce conflicts between neighbors. Libertarian purists object to such restrictions, but zoning is generally good: it separates farm animals from apartment buildings, and airports from quiet residential streets. If you own land and want to use it for some purpose it isn't zoned for, you can apply for a "conditional use permit" (CUP). This is how you ask for an exception from the regular zoning laws for your land.

The Sylmar Hang Gliding Association owns the four acres of property that we land on. It is zoned A1-1XL, and the permitted uses include raising crops or farm animals, and up to one residential house per 10,000 square feet. Hang gliding isn't listed as a permitted use, so now life gets complicated. Parks are permitted in just about any zone, and maybe we're like a park. But commercial airports (like LAX) are prohibited just about everywhere, and maybe we're like an airport. Despite being many hundreds of pages long, the Los Angeles Zoning Ordinance doesn't directly cover our case. However, the ordinance does say that any use that isn't explicitly permitted requires a CUP. I've studied the rules pretty carefully and concluded that we need to apply for a CUP, as have several SHGA pilots before me.

Unfortunately, a CUP application is a big deal. In addition to a filing fee of a few thousand dollars, it requires a large stack of forms and documents, and a public hearing to which the surrounding community is invited to attend and provide comments. It is expected that one will hire a consulting firm to help with the application, and this can cost tens of thousands of dollars.

The first serious CUP study that I know of for SHGA was late in 1991, by a committee consisting of John Wickham, Rob Richardson, Joe Greblo, Wayne Yentis, Grant Hoag, and Jim Brown. Their study concluded with a written report recommending that the board file an application. Either for lack of funds or concern about community support at the time, it was not pursued. After that, the topic was often mentioned, but I'm not aware of much invested work for a long time.

Early in 2008, with a new gazebo in mind, Joe Greblo, Larry Chamblee, and I returned to the CUP issue. I collected a lot of information, and it lives quietly at the bottom of the Members Area of this website. One can learn a lot about the club by reading what's there. The board of directors that year, with a new gazebo as the primary goal and a CUP as secondary, signed a contract with Robert Fedor to help SHGA through the permit hurdles. He was confident that we could get a building permit without a CUP, and by talking to the right Zoning Administrator, he promptly demonstrated that. Before we got it in writing though, a new Zoning Administrator was appointed, and asserted the reverse.

This contradiction, even among Zoning Administrators, hinges on an interesting side-note. In 1993, a development company owned a lot of vacant land on both sides of the Pacoima Wash. They were granted a CUP of their own to build Santiago Estates (the subdivision across the wash from SHGA), but it also required the developer "to convey Lot 3 [to] the Sylmar Baseball League and to retain Lot 2 for the use of the Hang Glider Association". This was the birth of SIBL to the south of us, and it acknowledged hang gliding on our land in an official, approved zoning document. It is unclear what rights are conveyed by that acknowledgement.

To prevent a long story from becoming even longer, we did get our pavilion building permit approved early this year, without needing a CUP. This saved maybe a year of work and a lot of money. However, we were also told that this building permit was a special deal, and we shouldn't expect the deal to apply to any other building permit, or to convey any further validity to our land use. This curious deal made it especially important to keep our building plans unchanged if possible.

Whether or not we ever find a need for a CUP, SHGA inevitably builds credibility by flying hang gliders, carrying on our business, and maintaining positive relationships with our neighbors, year after year after year.
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Don
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A wealth of information

Post by Don »

As always - Ken has the ability to provide the necessary information and summarize what has happened. I hope everyone especially noted the following "No matter how acute one's hindsight, one can't change the past. I'd rather look forward, and I think it's more valuable to the club." I would have been less PC and more blunt - if you think you can do a better job, run for office and see how you like everyone second guessing every decision - even years later.

Asking questions is fine - to a point - but realize that those questions takes time to answer. At some point that time is better spent moving forward.
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