This thread is to discuss the final thrust to gazebo completion and hopefully organize the membership to finish it quickly and as cost effectively as possible. A lot has been accomplished, and we are close. Time to end the work and spending and enjoy the fruits, just a few final steps.
To start fresh, I'll summarize some discussion here that started today on another thread:
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Glenn (10/4/11):
Do we have a budget to finish the Gazebo?
Required work to get the Gazebo usable:
1) Railing: We can start installing the the railing next week. I just need someone to weld the brackets onto the roof collumns first. Froschauer says he can do it, but he's temporarily without his welder. Once the welding is done, it will go up pretty quick with a little help. I'll have the brackets fabricated and the locations marked early next week.
2) Steps Railing (Per request, I'm working up a design and quote)
3) Roof framing
4) Roof Surface
5) Wheelchair Ramp Retaining Wall
6) Wheelchair Ramp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From BudRob 10/4/11:
No...we don't have a "budget" as such, as it takes what it takes, and the positive cash flow means that it will be finished, eventually, however we choose to spend the money to complete it (paid labor or not).
From estimates I have recently seen on roofing materials, hardware and framing lumber, it will likely take $15,000 - $20,000 to finish what we have in the plans without much or any paid labor. We currently have about $7K but this number will slowing increase if we only pay LZ maint costs.
So what do we do? We can:
1) Do the work as the money comes in. This will stretch the final completion out at least one year, probably more.
2) Take a personal loan from one or more of the members at very low interest (we already have these offeres) and pay it back as the positive cash flow allows.
Personally I think we should take the money and complete as labor allows, even paying some here and there as needed in areas that we don't have volunteers that know how to do the work. But if the membership feels differently I can easily be persuaded to finish as we get the dough, and pay no labor, and hope that people who know how to do things I don't will show up as needed, or those who do show up will learn as they go. I am confident that we will complete it this way as well, it may cost less but will take a lot longer and there will be more errors.
What does the membership think about this? Should it be put to a vote?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glenn: (10/4/11)
The roof is special in that I think it's smart to do just the roof with a loan or whatever it takes to get it done before the rain starts in earnest. A roof would provide cover while working on the rest of it in winter, allowing us to keep it progressing, rain or shine and protect what we do put in, like the railing.
Without the roof, I think we will come to a standstill till spring. I say we push for the roof ahead of all else. I too could loan the club money if needed.
I just completed putting a new roof on my house with the help of some friends who I may be able to get to work a lot cheaper than contractors. I paid them $10-13/hr. That would only apply if we do 3-tab shingles. That's all my guys know. Modern heavy premium shingles are pretty wind resistant and a lot tougher than they used to be. I would prefer a metal roof too, but not if it would require waiting another season or spending too much.
I don't know how much the framing would cost, but after it's done and the plywood is down, I think heavy duty quality shingles sold at Home Depot would cost about $1200 to cover the gazebo. There would be probably another $500 for ridge caps and other incidentals. Could be done in a single weekend with three guys = about $600 labor.
So my vote is yes to the roof, and as soon as possible.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don (10/4/11):
Borrow the money if needed - but let's keep moving.
Gazebo Completion (Le coup de gras)
Moderator: Chip
From Pi-Hsuan on the other thread:
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:34 pm
"Rob,
Thank you for responding to Glenn’s questions.
Two retaining walls are needed per plan, actually, to hold up the dirt ramp.
An accessible parking stall is also required per the approved drawing Sheet A-1 to obtain the Certificate of Occupancy.
If we have a clear game plan on the roof construction, i.e., the required skilled labors (paid or not) are lined up and ready to go, then taking a loan is worth it.
Glenn,
I think a metal roof will go better with the rails you are making. Our project is in a “Very High Fire Hazard Severity Zone� and the roofing material requires a Class A fire rating. It is safer to stick with the material that has been approved."
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:34 pm
"Rob,
Thank you for responding to Glenn’s questions.
Two retaining walls are needed per plan, actually, to hold up the dirt ramp.
An accessible parking stall is also required per the approved drawing Sheet A-1 to obtain the Certificate of Occupancy.
If we have a clear game plan on the roof construction, i.e., the required skilled labors (paid or not) are lined up and ready to go, then taking a loan is worth it.
Glenn,
I think a metal roof will go better with the rails you are making. Our project is in a “Very High Fire Hazard Severity Zone� and the roofing material requires a Class A fire rating. It is safer to stick with the material that has been approved."
Flyyyyy
Do we have anyone lined up to frame the roof structure. That takes some skill and experience. Installing the plywood and felt are pretty simple, and putting on the metal roof is a possible do-it-yourself for the members. There are plenty of instructional videos on line that show you step by step how to do it. Especially if we have one guy who has done it before. Is there a plan for all this? What's next? We need the framing done, then we members can do the rest, and cover it with tarps as we are proceeding, can't we?
Flyyyyy
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Ken Andrews
- Site Admin
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:22 pm
- Location: Pasadena
Pavilion projects
I agree with Rob that there are three primary projects we need to do: the railing and stair hand rails, the roof, and the handicap access ramp and landscaping. Thanks to Glenn, the railing is well under way. Board members are working on the other items as time permits, especially on the roof. Following are rough task lists for these projects.
Handicap access ramp and landscaping
* Lay out ramp, confirm 20:1 slope and exact elevations. A handicap access ramp without railings must have a slope no steeper than 20:1, and meet other requirements on width, turn radius, etc. Our building plans include an approved design, but the true elevations of the parking lot and pavilion differ by a few inches from plan, and so modifications may be necessary.
* Lay out retaining walls, design footing details. I believe designs can be adapted readily from document P/BC 2002-002 available at http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/information-bulletins.jsf.
* As necessary, remove existing trees, and move flagpole, payment post, and signboard.
* Dig trenches, pour concrete, build block walls.
* Back-fill dirt with contours per plan.
* Landscape with decomposed granite paths, trees, planting, and bench.
Roof
* Select among three designs: skylights, cupolas, or plain hip roofs. Our approved plan calls for a four-foot square pyramidal skylight at the peak of each hip roof, but these skylights seem to be really expensive. Based on that, the skylights are almost certainly out, and we'll either keep those architectural elements as roof "cupolas", or eliminate them completely and have simpler hip roofs. To properly make this decision, we need materials lists, price estimates, and labor estimates for each option. I have been working hard on this problem over the last couple weeks, but I won't burden the forum here with all the numbers and details. Please let me know if you wish to get involved.
* Select roofing material: metal, composite shingle, or other. The metal roof would last a lot longer, but would also be substantially more expensive. Again, to properly make this decision, we need materials lists, and price and labor estimates for each option. A standing-seam metal roof may require professional installation.
* Determine labor source. How much can be built by club volunteers, and how much must we hire professionals for? I want to believe that the club has members who have these skills or could learn them readily enough, but I don't know who those people are. Please speak up if you know how to build a roof, or are willing to learn.
* Based on results from the previous three items, buy materials and start building. If necessary, collect bids and hire any professionals.
Additional projects
* Glider storage spaces. Dig out dirt, install racks and tubes, design and install doors and harness storage bins.
* Electrical. It would be nice to have lights, electrical outlets, telephone, and Internet access, wouldn't it? We need one or more club members to take the lead on this project.
* Water. It would also be nice to have a drinking fountain, and maybe a sink for food preparation. Again, volunteers are needed to lead this effort.
Work on each of these is needed and would be very much appreciated. At the risk of stifling creativity though, we don't really need lots of discussion. My critical view is that the pilot forum typically generates a whole lot of advice that people think somebody else should follow, but doesn't generate many people to actually do those things. Please prove me wrong on this.
Handicap access ramp and landscaping
* Lay out ramp, confirm 20:1 slope and exact elevations. A handicap access ramp without railings must have a slope no steeper than 20:1, and meet other requirements on width, turn radius, etc. Our building plans include an approved design, but the true elevations of the parking lot and pavilion differ by a few inches from plan, and so modifications may be necessary.
* Lay out retaining walls, design footing details. I believe designs can be adapted readily from document P/BC 2002-002 available at http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/information-bulletins.jsf.
* As necessary, remove existing trees, and move flagpole, payment post, and signboard.
* Dig trenches, pour concrete, build block walls.
* Back-fill dirt with contours per plan.
* Landscape with decomposed granite paths, trees, planting, and bench.
Roof
* Select among three designs: skylights, cupolas, or plain hip roofs. Our approved plan calls for a four-foot square pyramidal skylight at the peak of each hip roof, but these skylights seem to be really expensive. Based on that, the skylights are almost certainly out, and we'll either keep those architectural elements as roof "cupolas", or eliminate them completely and have simpler hip roofs. To properly make this decision, we need materials lists, price estimates, and labor estimates for each option. I have been working hard on this problem over the last couple weeks, but I won't burden the forum here with all the numbers and details. Please let me know if you wish to get involved.
* Select roofing material: metal, composite shingle, or other. The metal roof would last a lot longer, but would also be substantially more expensive. Again, to properly make this decision, we need materials lists, and price and labor estimates for each option. A standing-seam metal roof may require professional installation.
* Determine labor source. How much can be built by club volunteers, and how much must we hire professionals for? I want to believe that the club has members who have these skills or could learn them readily enough, but I don't know who those people are. Please speak up if you know how to build a roof, or are willing to learn.
* Based on results from the previous three items, buy materials and start building. If necessary, collect bids and hire any professionals.
Additional projects
* Glider storage spaces. Dig out dirt, install racks and tubes, design and install doors and harness storage bins.
* Electrical. It would be nice to have lights, electrical outlets, telephone, and Internet access, wouldn't it? We need one or more club members to take the lead on this project.
* Water. It would also be nice to have a drinking fountain, and maybe a sink for food preparation. Again, volunteers are needed to lead this effort.
Work on each of these is needed and would be very much appreciated. At the risk of stifling creativity though, we don't really need lots of discussion. My critical view is that the pilot forum typically generates a whole lot of advice that people think somebody else should follow, but doesn't generate many people to actually do those things. Please prove me wrong on this.
-
Ken Andrews
- Site Admin
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:22 pm
- Location: Pasadena
For those who are interested, a scanned copy of the pavilion landscaping is here, photocopied from the plans. I enlarged it slightly so that the scale is exactly 1/8 inch to the foot, and have drawn on a grid of six-foot squares. The squares are aligned with the centers of the pavilion posts, as the most stable reference points we have.
Quoting from an email message I sent to Joe Greblo a couple days ago...
Quoting from an email message I sent to Joe Greblo a couple days ago...
If someone else finds the necessary time before I do, that would be wonderful.Whenever I have time to work on this project, I'll pound in stakes along the center of the handicap path at every six-inch (or three-inch) elevation contour, and run a string along them at the proposed ground elevation. I'll also put hooks on the ends of my level, one a little longer than the other, so that it will hang from a string and verify a 20:1 slope. Then it will be a game of tinkering with the stakes and string until we satisfy the 20:1 requirement all the way from the pavilion steps to the parking lot. Supposing that can be done without major modifications, then we can lay out the retaining walls and dig trenches for them.
General discussion does seem to get a lot of views. I think it doesn't hurt to keep it where it is. By chance if people think they have an idea, then let's hear it. It can't hurt.
I don't think that it's a matter of proving anyone wrong. Up to this point it seems that the "Meeting Minutes" are not a place most go to, but by the number of views in the general discussion the word seems to travel.
"Some questions about the pavilion project", has received over a thousand views, Glenn's "Gazebo Completion (Le coup de gras) has received a hundred since late last night.
It might be the fact that people have to sign in again. I agree that things are cluttering the general discussion, but if you see where the views are going, people want to know.
I don't think that it's a matter of proving anyone wrong. Up to this point it seems that the "Meeting Minutes" are not a place most go to, but by the number of views in the general discussion the word seems to travel.
"Some questions about the pavilion project", has received over a thousand views, Glenn's "Gazebo Completion (Le coup de gras) has received a hundred since late last night.
It might be the fact that people have to sign in again. I agree that things are cluttering the general discussion, but if you see where the views are going, people want to know.
Last edited by Busto on Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
When it comes to "A whole lot of advice that people think somebody else should follow, but doesn't generate many people to actually do those things", I think that has nothing to do with the location of the threads in the general discussion. The fact is that club members seem to gravitate to this location.
"At the risk of stifling creativity though, we don't really need lots of discussion". People are going to talk about and offer their expertise, but with research, I'm sure that the right people will be gathered to do the jobs that are left. In fact, it was through discussion, which brought the rail and roof down in price without compromising the effect on look.
People offer their help and I'm sure they whole heartedly want to do what they can, but to commit is very difficult for most who are working. Nevertheless, they are members and they should be informed and by the best means.
Again, I still think until we find a better way to communicate with the club, the general discussion is the easiest and most reliable form of passing information. I believe that all members have a right to be involved. Making a commitment to go to board meetings on a Thursday is unreasonable for most club members. Working late, long distances, traffic and being tired work against most members' desire. I've been to the last few and saw only a few others besides those on the board. I think it is important for the one hundred and forty or so to know what is going on.
To hear their points of views is fair and to deliver the message to them is also fair.
So far the best form of passing information is the general discussion.
"At the risk of stifling creativity though, we don't really need lots of discussion". People are going to talk about and offer their expertise, but with research, I'm sure that the right people will be gathered to do the jobs that are left. In fact, it was through discussion, which brought the rail and roof down in price without compromising the effect on look.
People offer their help and I'm sure they whole heartedly want to do what they can, but to commit is very difficult for most who are working. Nevertheless, they are members and they should be informed and by the best means.
Again, I still think until we find a better way to communicate with the club, the general discussion is the easiest and most reliable form of passing information. I believe that all members have a right to be involved. Making a commitment to go to board meetings on a Thursday is unreasonable for most club members. Working late, long distances, traffic and being tired work against most members' desire. I've been to the last few and saw only a few others besides those on the board. I think it is important for the one hundred and forty or so to know what is going on.
To hear their points of views is fair and to deliver the message to them is also fair.
So far the best form of passing information is the general discussion.
Robert,
The metal shingle roofing materials will cost somewhere between $4000 and $5500, depending on the style, underlayment and accessories chosen. You can use the following link to select styles and create a quote with or without accessories. The same styles appear to be avaiilable from many different distributors and there are several brands but this will be a good start. After you figure a total, you can shop around for the best deal in our area. All Roofing on Raymer street in Van Nuys may be a good place to ask, too.
I used 1600 sq.ft. to conservatively estimate costs with 20% waste. I think Ken has calculated closer to 1200 sq. ft. (12 squares, in roofer speak) in actual area.
http://www.metalroofingsource.com/roofing-estimate.php
Underlayments run from $25/200sq.ft. roll for 30# felt to $215/198 sq. ft. roll of self-adhesive, synthetic material (no nailing!). Keep in mind that the cheaper felt must be overlapped 50%; adjust your calculations accordingly.
Once you have your estimates for materials for what ever styles you have chosen from the site(s), you can ask your friend from up North, if he believes this is a project for unskilled volunteers or whether it would be possible with minimal professional direction and/or what he would charge for such direction or to do the installation himself, if unsklilled volunteers are not a good choice. I suspect some of the style choices are more difficult than others to install, so you will want to ask for his opinion for each one that interests you. A man-hours guesstimate would be great, too.
The board requires a final total cost for materials and labor (if any) to proceed.
Thanks for your efforts and I'll watch here for your communication.
The metal shingle roofing materials will cost somewhere between $4000 and $5500, depending on the style, underlayment and accessories chosen. You can use the following link to select styles and create a quote with or without accessories. The same styles appear to be avaiilable from many different distributors and there are several brands but this will be a good start. After you figure a total, you can shop around for the best deal in our area. All Roofing on Raymer street in Van Nuys may be a good place to ask, too.
I used 1600 sq.ft. to conservatively estimate costs with 20% waste. I think Ken has calculated closer to 1200 sq. ft. (12 squares, in roofer speak) in actual area.
http://www.metalroofingsource.com/roofing-estimate.php
Underlayments run from $25/200sq.ft. roll for 30# felt to $215/198 sq. ft. roll of self-adhesive, synthetic material (no nailing!). Keep in mind that the cheaper felt must be overlapped 50%; adjust your calculations accordingly.
Once you have your estimates for materials for what ever styles you have chosen from the site(s), you can ask your friend from up North, if he believes this is a project for unskilled volunteers or whether it would be possible with minimal professional direction and/or what he would charge for such direction or to do the installation himself, if unsklilled volunteers are not a good choice. I suspect some of the style choices are more difficult than others to install, so you will want to ask for his opinion for each one that interests you. A man-hours guesstimate would be great, too.
The board requires a final total cost for materials and labor (if any) to proceed.
Thanks for your efforts and I'll watch here for your communication.
Thanks Jim,
It's good to hear from you. I hope you had a good day of flying on Saturday. Sounds like I missed a day to remember.
I am going to see if I can get him down here soon to look at it. Then the board and Gazebo committee can see what they want to do next.
Again thanks for the information.
Sincerely,
Robert
It's good to hear from you. I hope you had a good day of flying on Saturday. Sounds like I missed a day to remember.
I am going to see if I can get him down here soon to look at it. Then the board and Gazebo committee can see what they want to do next.
Again thanks for the information.
Sincerely,
Robert
I'm really interested in getting the roof done for the reasons I've already stated. That requires a decision on style first.
To compare with Jim's estimate above, here is some data on fiberglass asphalt shingles:
Nearly all modern asphalt shingles are rated Class A Fire Resistant The granules are ceramic and generally don't ignite until the structure under them does. Then it doesn't matter anyhow. Last month I installed about 3000 sq ft of these on my home and garage without a contractor, and they came out great. It was pretty easy, and has a quality look. Lifetime limited warranty, up to 130 MPH winds.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053
If the roof is 1200 sq.ft = 12 squares.
After plywood underlayment is in, my estimate is:
Shingles above = 36 bundles @ $28.45 + tax = $2000.
Roofing felt: 12 squares at 2/$25 = 6 * $25 = $150.
Nails: 256/square = 3072 = approx $50
Ridge caps: Qty depends on # of ridges in design, probably 3 Boxes = $170
Other incidentals and waste $500
Material Total = $2870
Labor = $600 - $1000
As I mentioned earlier, the friends who helped do my roof would probably do this one for about $600. This does not require professionals.
I don't have experience with metal roof. It sounds great, but it is a rarer skill with a few extra steps involved.
Any additional fire protection it would offer is questionable or unnecessary
Material cost is a couple thousand extra, and I expect labor to be at least double by comparison.
Either way, I will volunteer my personal labor to help with the install to get it done,hopefully in one weekend or at most two. That's with a decent crew of help dawn to dusk.
I would suggest dropping both the skylights and the cupolas and opt for a simple clean roof. This place is open air, no walls, mid-day use. I don't see a need for either extra ventilation or light. It will be far superior to the old gazebo in both regards even without this extra cost of time and money. IMHO.
To compare with Jim's estimate above, here is some data on fiberglass asphalt shingles:
Nearly all modern asphalt shingles are rated Class A Fire Resistant The granules are ceramic and generally don't ignite until the structure under them does. Then it doesn't matter anyhow. Last month I installed about 3000 sq ft of these on my home and garage without a contractor, and they came out great. It was pretty easy, and has a quality look. Lifetime limited warranty, up to 130 MPH winds.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053
If the roof is 1200 sq.ft = 12 squares.
After plywood underlayment is in, my estimate is:
Shingles above = 36 bundles @ $28.45 + tax = $2000.
Roofing felt: 12 squares at 2/$25 = 6 * $25 = $150.
Nails: 256/square = 3072 = approx $50
Ridge caps: Qty depends on # of ridges in design, probably 3 Boxes = $170
Other incidentals and waste $500
Material Total = $2870
Labor = $600 - $1000
As I mentioned earlier, the friends who helped do my roof would probably do this one for about $600. This does not require professionals.
I don't have experience with metal roof. It sounds great, but it is a rarer skill with a few extra steps involved.
Any additional fire protection it would offer is questionable or unnecessary
Material cost is a couple thousand extra, and I expect labor to be at least double by comparison.
Either way, I will volunteer my personal labor to help with the install to get it done,hopefully in one weekend or at most two. That's with a decent crew of help dawn to dusk.
I would suggest dropping both the skylights and the cupolas and opt for a simple clean roof. This place is open air, no walls, mid-day use. I don't see a need for either extra ventilation or light. It will be far superior to the old gazebo in both regards even without this extra cost of time and money. IMHO.
Flyyyyy
I agree with Glen that we need to do the roof soon, and we should ditch the cupola and skylight option to reduce cost and complication. If the roof is to be metal, we should pick a color soon so we can get on with paining the roof supports, which I assume will be the same color.
Colors - I am thinking that we should stick with some sort of earth color, like brown, gray or dark green.
If you want to see one example of what this could look like, look at the shade structure in the park just before turning onto Simshaw street. It has a brown metal roof and supports. I think it would be fine if ours looked similar.
So let's pick a color NOW so we can get on with the metal painting before installing the rails.
Colors - I am thinking that we should stick with some sort of earth color, like brown, gray or dark green.
If you want to see one example of what this could look like, look at the shade structure in the park just before turning onto Simshaw street. It has a brown metal roof and supports. I think it would be fine if ours looked similar.
So let's pick a color NOW so we can get on with the metal painting before installing the rails.
I'll be out of town until Monday, but when I get back, my plan is as follows:
To come to the LZ Tues. with a welder to weld on and test a set of the brackets that will hold the railing to the roof supports, and have that first rail section completely installed.
Then return later in the week to weld on more if not all of the brackets, and primer coat them.
Then we can paint the roof supports, with the welds and brackets complete. So be sure to wait for me to finish the welding before painting them. We should be able to paint them by the weekend.
I expect, I'll get some more sections of railing installed next week as well, so we need a decision on what wood and finish we want for the wood cap for the rail. We need that pretty quick.
Thanks all,
To come to the LZ Tues. with a welder to weld on and test a set of the brackets that will hold the railing to the roof supports, and have that first rail section completely installed.
Then return later in the week to weld on more if not all of the brackets, and primer coat them.
Then we can paint the roof supports, with the welds and brackets complete. So be sure to wait for me to finish the welding before painting them. We should be able to paint them by the weekend.
I expect, I'll get some more sections of railing installed next week as well, so we need a decision on what wood and finish we want for the wood cap for the rail. We need that pretty quick.
Thanks all,
Flyyyyy
I like the idea of the phony wood to be used as rails. Zero maint and we can pick the color to match the roof and supports. It costs a lot more but still amounts to just a few hundred dollars. However I can go with natural wood as well, as long as people understand that there is no clear finish that will stand up to UV. We could finish it with the same stuff we did the wood beams but that is nothing more than a water proofer.
I think what I described above are the main 2 choices. We need opinions on the wood RIGHT NOW so speak up, also color opinions.
The size of the wood should be 8 inches wide (7.5 actual) so that the edges barely exceed the roof supports that they butt up against.[/quote]
I think what I described above are the main 2 choices. We need opinions on the wood RIGHT NOW so speak up, also color opinions.
The size of the wood should be 8 inches wide (7.5 actual) so that the edges barely exceed the roof supports that they butt up against.[/quote]
http://www.plasticlumberyard.com/
I think the wood rail is warping a bit on one end.
The plastic rail may not take a lot of sun exposure if the roof extends out further; the full 24".
Kyle just finished a dark green metal roof. The location is in a forest and the trees wrapping around it allows it to blend well.
If you are in the sky looking down on ours, the green will blend in well with the grass, but I think that any of the colors you mentioned earlier are fine.
I think the wood rail is warping a bit on one end.
The plastic rail may not take a lot of sun exposure if the roof extends out further; the full 24".
Kyle just finished a dark green metal roof. The location is in a forest and the trees wrapping around it allows it to blend well.
If you are in the sky looking down on ours, the green will blend in well with the grass, but I think that any of the colors you mentioned earlier are fine.
I estimate that with waste we will need about 160 ft of cap material.
Per the link above I estimate the 2 X 8 plastic material would cost about $1068 with tax for the whole gazebo. In douglas fir it would be about $150. But the plastic would require no finishing labor or materials. It should be remembered that it could eventually have someone's initials carved in it no matter what we use.
The piece I already installed was very green lumber and it's still oozing sap. It's finished with about 3 coats of exterior clear semi-gloss urethane. I've used that before on wood exposed to full sun all day, and it does NOT hold up. It darkens and eventually peels off. You can use a deck stain and just water proofer that would probably perform much better, but needs recoated probably every 2 years. That would not be a big job. It would take one person a couple hours. I have a small wooden bridge in my back yard that I've been doing that to for about 10 years and it works fine.
Since the fir is so cheap and the rail design allows for a quick and easy replacement, one option is to use the douglas fir and deck stain it. Give it a year or so test, and if it does not work try something else. The quote I gave on the rail of $1800 includes that cap with a cursory sanding and coating of whatever we want. For $150 bucks, what do we have to loose? We could replace as often as we want at that cost. I designed the rail to allow the cap to be quickly removed and replaced without affecting the metal portion at all.
I'm fine with watever you guys choose, but I need a decision early next week if you want me to keep my schedule for completeing the rail by mid-month (Oct.).
Thanks
Per the link above I estimate the 2 X 8 plastic material would cost about $1068 with tax for the whole gazebo. In douglas fir it would be about $150. But the plastic would require no finishing labor or materials. It should be remembered that it could eventually have someone's initials carved in it no matter what we use.
The piece I already installed was very green lumber and it's still oozing sap. It's finished with about 3 coats of exterior clear semi-gloss urethane. I've used that before on wood exposed to full sun all day, and it does NOT hold up. It darkens and eventually peels off. You can use a deck stain and just water proofer that would probably perform much better, but needs recoated probably every 2 years. That would not be a big job. It would take one person a couple hours. I have a small wooden bridge in my back yard that I've been doing that to for about 10 years and it works fine.
Since the fir is so cheap and the rail design allows for a quick and easy replacement, one option is to use the douglas fir and deck stain it. Give it a year or so test, and if it does not work try something else. The quote I gave on the rail of $1800 includes that cap with a cursory sanding and coating of whatever we want. For $150 bucks, what do we have to loose? We could replace as often as we want at that cost. I designed the rail to allow the cap to be quickly removed and replaced without affecting the metal portion at all.
I'm fine with watever you guys choose, but I need a decision early next week if you want me to keep my schedule for completeing the rail by mid-month (Oct.).
Thanks
Flyyyyy
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gregangsten
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am
- Location: Westchester
rails
One other thing about the plastic is that it is not strong and bends more than wood.
Having built a deck out of Ipe, I'm still hung up on that stuff. It will last a hundred years without rotting, is termite and fireproof, incredibly hard and looks great. If we made it a narrower rail, perhaps 5/4 x 6 (1.5 x 5.5) the cost would be that of plastic, I think. Possibly less.
On the other hand, Glenn's points make a lot of sense and we would have the advantage(?) of having a virtual bar top all the way around.
Having built a deck out of Ipe, I'm still hung up on that stuff. It will last a hundred years without rotting, is termite and fireproof, incredibly hard and looks great. If we made it a narrower rail, perhaps 5/4 x 6 (1.5 x 5.5) the cost would be that of plastic, I think. Possibly less.
On the other hand, Glenn's points make a lot of sense and we would have the advantage(?) of having a virtual bar top all the way around.
According to the landscape architect for the ADA ramp, Douglas Fir is not a good choice for the railing; likely to warp and deteriorate when exposed. He recommends redwood, if real wood is chosen. At Home Depot, redwood runs about 3X the cost of fir.
Hardwood wood be great but more expensive and more unstable. Oak, for instance, will split if it gets wet. I looked at the specs for a farmed mahogany and the brochure specifically mentions the annual maintenance with parafins or other water-resistant finish, especially the ends.
I looked up the cost of Trex. I think I remember it was over $70/ 16-footer, 1" X 6" dimension. About $56 for a 12' length. Even the highest quality sample looks very much like plastic. Lowes has it at the contractor desk.
Another alternative is Lifetime Lumber available from Lowes. A little less expensive composite than Trex and the appearance is more like painted wood. More color choice for this product than Trex.
I agree with Rob on the roof. At this point, simpler is better. Ditch the skylights and the cupolas. I talked to Hiro, the architect, and he didn't have a problem with the deletion. He's just happy we're getting something done and has offered continued support if we need it... even from his new work location in Mexico.
Forest green (my Crayolas show this to be a deep, dark shade) for the posts is my suggestion. The metal faux-slate shingles would be my choice for the roof. Green if it the standing seam, snow-slide material is chosen; a good example of that roof can be seen, each time you drive to launc,h on the large, barn-like structure we think is used for adult movie filming.
Hardwood wood be great but more expensive and more unstable. Oak, for instance, will split if it gets wet. I looked at the specs for a farmed mahogany and the brochure specifically mentions the annual maintenance with parafins or other water-resistant finish, especially the ends.
I looked up the cost of Trex. I think I remember it was over $70/ 16-footer, 1" X 6" dimension. About $56 for a 12' length. Even the highest quality sample looks very much like plastic. Lowes has it at the contractor desk.
Another alternative is Lifetime Lumber available from Lowes. A little less expensive composite than Trex and the appearance is more like painted wood. More color choice for this product than Trex.
I agree with Rob on the roof. At this point, simpler is better. Ditch the skylights and the cupolas. I talked to Hiro, the architect, and he didn't have a problem with the deletion. He's just happy we're getting something done and has offered continued support if we need it... even from his new work location in Mexico.
Forest green (my Crayolas show this to be a deep, dark shade) for the posts is my suggestion. The metal faux-slate shingles would be my choice for the roof. Green if it the standing seam, snow-slide material is chosen; a good example of that roof can be seen, each time you drive to launc,h on the large, barn-like structure we think is used for adult movie filming.
Regarding the skylights and the cupolas, the following are the words I got from the architect and the engineer of record.
“If the club decides no skylights to be installed, I have no objection against it.�
-Hiro Matsunaga, September 12, 2011.
“Question of eliminating skylight, it is structurally perfectly alright, even better.�
-Kuni Nishiya, September 21, 2011.
The website Jim provided has a Color Visualizer that allows people to apply different color options on the same roof structure to compare. It is worth checking it out.
With regards to the top rail material, since our current railing design does not have a continuous horizontal metal piece that connects two columns to take the lateral force, we need to make sure that whatever material we decide to use comes in 18-foot-long sections. Otherwise, the railing design has to be modified for the areas that have the18-foot-long span.
“If the club decides no skylights to be installed, I have no objection against it.�
-Hiro Matsunaga, September 12, 2011.
“Question of eliminating skylight, it is structurally perfectly alright, even better.�
-Kuni Nishiya, September 21, 2011.
The website Jim provided has a Color Visualizer that allows people to apply different color options on the same roof structure to compare. It is worth checking it out.
With regards to the top rail material, since our current railing design does not have a continuous horizontal metal piece that connects two columns to take the lateral force, we need to make sure that whatever material we decide to use comes in 18-foot-long sections. Otherwise, the railing design has to be modified for the areas that have the18-foot-long span.