Access to landing at the Big T wash is crucial for us, as it is necessary if we are to fly anywhere east of Lance's ridge. Joe G. had a conversation with the landowner across from our landing area in the Big T wash. He has had concerns with people in general leaving trash around in the wash and driving on his property, which extends a good ways across the road and into the wash. Pilots are often picked up right across from his place as it is the closest place on the road to the end of our runway. We are seen as part of the problem when we park there and attract others to do the same. Here are some points Joe made after their discussion:
After reports of landowner concerns out at the Big T landing area, I
met with him and had a long discussion regarding continued landings
over there.
He is supportive of what we do and has not had any bad experiences
with hang gliders, other than a couple of issues that he'd like us to
try to take care of.
We exchanged phone numbers as well.
1. There is no parking along Big Tujunga Cyn Rd. and when we park
there, it encourages others to do so as well. He's asked that we
park inside his property only. (but not blocking his driveway.)
2. He's asking that we refrain from putting up landing streamers in
the wash because they attract people to walk and drive out there to
see what might be going on.
3. He's asking that we do right hand landing approaches so we don't
fly over the equestrian areas on the east side of the Big Tujunga Cyn.
Rd.
4. We may consider helping him with a clean up of the trash near the
landing area soon.
Landing in the Big T wash
Moderator: Chip
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gregangsten
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- Location: Westchester
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gregangsten
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am
- Location: Westchester
Big T wash areas explained
Here are the areas we are talking about. Yellow is our runway, no parking in red areas, green preferred.
"Landowner"??? The wash is a government administered riparian area that has all the public access as the rest of the adjacent national forest. Not sure what kind of story they told you, but they don't own it.
Also look what they have done:
The debris piled up to prevent public access to the public land looks like the work of an amateur and not the USDAFS.
I obviously have zero tact with these types of things, so hold me back as needed. Tell him to go to hell. Let's move his debris to make room for safe glider loading. Sure help pick up trash, but it's not his land we don't need to kiss his ring for access to land he doesn't own.
Also look what they have done:
The debris piled up to prevent public access to the public land looks like the work of an amateur and not the USDAFS.
I obviously have zero tact with these types of things, so hold me back as needed. Tell him to go to hell. Let's move his debris to make room for safe glider loading. Sure help pick up trash, but it's not his land we don't need to kiss his ring for access to land he doesn't own.
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gregangsten
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- Location: Westchester
Landowner
Calm down, Opie. What you see in that picture, he does own. And there's more he leases from DWP. Now go kiss his ring, or whatever is available because so far, he is friendly towards us. Of course, he hasn't met you yet.
I can't believe you are out there taking pictures already. I thought you had a job?
I can't believe you are out there taking pictures already. I thought you had a job?
That's a screen shot from: http://goo.gl/maps/mlPKd
No he doesn't own it. And it's quick to call be people out these days for things like this: http://maps.assessor.lacounty.gov/mapping/viewer.asp
For the debris; if I get the time and mind, I'll westlaw calcodes about stacking rocks inches from the side of the road. The private enforcement of a no stopping zone by stacking dangerous debris inches from the road sounds suspect. For even if he did own the land on both sides of the road, the easement the road has would extend a known distance on each side that can be cleared for safety purposes.
Similar situation to this are the decorative red octagons around town and on mcclay/glaviana. No they aren't stop signs. Stopping ones car at random points in the middle of the road is a safety hazard. However as the pariah of the community with our conspicuous glider racks, we must stop at them. Same with this "landowner." Just because we have conspicuous purpose and are easy to identify, we now must make believe than random various people own various random bits of land as they see fit.
No he doesn't own it. And it's quick to call be people out these days for things like this: http://maps.assessor.lacounty.gov/mapping/viewer.asp
For the debris; if I get the time and mind, I'll westlaw calcodes about stacking rocks inches from the side of the road. The private enforcement of a no stopping zone by stacking dangerous debris inches from the road sounds suspect. For even if he did own the land on both sides of the road, the easement the road has would extend a known distance on each side that can be cleared for safety purposes.
Similar situation to this are the decorative red octagons around town and on mcclay/glaviana. No they aren't stop signs. Stopping ones car at random points in the middle of the road is a safety hazard. However as the pariah of the community with our conspicuous glider racks, we must stop at them. Same with this "landowner." Just because we have conspicuous purpose and are easy to identify, we now must make believe than random various people own various random bits of land as they see fit.
Greg, I have a bridge in New York that you might want to be interested in buying.
He doesn't own the wash, nor all the gold in them there hills neither. The "he's a nice guy willing to work with us" is more like "he's a fraud trying to punk and bully his neighbor the ball park and us."
Check it:
Our boy the "landowner" owns a postage stamp that does have the road run across the north west tip. Assessor ID 2552-004-300. It has government assessed values for both the land and his improvements. Someone is paying taxes on it.
Now check the wash where we land. A huge expanse of a parcel, it has been recorded date of 40 years earlier. It has no assessed value and no one pays tax on it. Apparently the forest doesn't have to pay tax.
This is my theory: He has horses, and likes to ride them in the wash. He bought a small parcel next to a large open area and would like to claim exclusive access to it. That is a bad thing.
He does try to maintain the property by keeping litter bugs and illegal vehicular trespass to a minimum, a good thing.
His neighbor, the ball park, would seem like a good one. With just a bit of noise after school for practice, and games on the weekends. Overall a neighbor i'd like to have. However Hispanic children playing ball is bane to the existence of rich white people on horses. So he gives them hell by placing rubble and debris about ball park perimeter to keep them parking just so. A bad thing.
I don't know what I'm talking about. From what it sounds like, the guy is a jerk.
He doesn't own the wash, nor all the gold in them there hills neither. The "he's a nice guy willing to work with us" is more like "he's a fraud trying to punk and bully his neighbor the ball park and us."
Check it:
Our boy the "landowner" owns a postage stamp that does have the road run across the north west tip. Assessor ID 2552-004-300. It has government assessed values for both the land and his improvements. Someone is paying taxes on it.
Now check the wash where we land. A huge expanse of a parcel, it has been recorded date of 40 years earlier. It has no assessed value and no one pays tax on it. Apparently the forest doesn't have to pay tax.
This is my theory: He has horses, and likes to ride them in the wash. He bought a small parcel next to a large open area and would like to claim exclusive access to it. That is a bad thing.
He does try to maintain the property by keeping litter bugs and illegal vehicular trespass to a minimum, a good thing.
His neighbor, the ball park, would seem like a good one. With just a bit of noise after school for practice, and games on the weekends. Overall a neighbor i'd like to have. However Hispanic children playing ball is bane to the existence of rich white people on horses. So he gives them hell by placing rubble and debris about ball park perimeter to keep them parking just so. A bad thing.
I don't know what I'm talking about. From what it sounds like, the guy is a jerk.
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gregangsten
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:22 am
- Location: Westchester
This link shows exactly his land in relation to the road
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11900 ... 5371_zpid/
This link questions if you can put wood or rocks on the side of a road to stop parking
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 038AAQLC7i
) First of all, just because the land is between you and the street does not mean that you actually own it, so the key issue here is, despite the way you wrote your question, is it actually YOUR yard?. In many towns, the City owns a large street (on paper) say, perhaps 60 feet in width, but only builds the street and sidewalk in a portion of that. The rest is still legally a public street or public right of way and is not your property to control. That is how the electric company or cable company can use that land to install their services. So the first part of the answer is that you need to know WHERE your property line is.
. a) Contact your local City/County public works department and find out how wide the Right of Way is in front of your property.
. b) Then measure acorss the paved portion to see how wide it really is. (Dont get run over.. if you do not have a long cloth tape, use a piece of rope and then measure the rope in a safe location). Half of the value of the missing street is likely how far the road extends on your side.
Now you will know approximately what is yours. (If you need better info you will need to get a survey or check City/County records for a previous survey of your property or someone else on your side of the street and on your block.
If they are parking on YOUR property, put up no parking signs and then call the police if they are tresspassing.
If it is City RoW, improved or not, then they likely have the right to park there since it is public land (unless your city has passed an ordinance to the contrary). You need to contacy your elected representative and find out if they can help.
Last method is to buy so LARGE rocks and put them out front. Of course that stops YOU from parking there too and the City may simply come and haul them away if they constitute a traffic hazard. This process, however, also exposes YOU to liability if someone driving on public property is hurt or damaged by the rocks you place there.
.Addendum: You did not say if the roadway was improved or not (sidewalks, curb and gutter, etc..) obviously if those improvements are in, parking is not allowed beyond the curbing unless specifically authorized by the governing body.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11900 ... 5371_zpid/
This link questions if you can put wood or rocks on the side of a road to stop parking
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 038AAQLC7i
) First of all, just because the land is between you and the street does not mean that you actually own it, so the key issue here is, despite the way you wrote your question, is it actually YOUR yard?. In many towns, the City owns a large street (on paper) say, perhaps 60 feet in width, but only builds the street and sidewalk in a portion of that. The rest is still legally a public street or public right of way and is not your property to control. That is how the electric company or cable company can use that land to install their services. So the first part of the answer is that you need to know WHERE your property line is.
. a) Contact your local City/County public works department and find out how wide the Right of Way is in front of your property.
. b) Then measure acorss the paved portion to see how wide it really is. (Dont get run over.. if you do not have a long cloth tape, use a piece of rope and then measure the rope in a safe location). Half of the value of the missing street is likely how far the road extends on your side.
Now you will know approximately what is yours. (If you need better info you will need to get a survey or check City/County records for a previous survey of your property or someone else on your side of the street and on your block.
If they are parking on YOUR property, put up no parking signs and then call the police if they are tresspassing.
If it is City RoW, improved or not, then they likely have the right to park there since it is public land (unless your city has passed an ordinance to the contrary). You need to contacy your elected representative and find out if they can help.
Last method is to buy so LARGE rocks and put them out front. Of course that stops YOU from parking there too and the City may simply come and haul them away if they constitute a traffic hazard. This process, however, also exposes YOU to liability if someone driving on public property is hurt or damaged by the rocks you place there.
.Addendum: You did not say if the roadway was improved or not (sidewalks, curb and gutter, etc..) obviously if those improvements are in, parking is not allowed beyond the curbing unless specifically authorized by the governing body.
He owns the top half of Lot 20 in the lower right-hand corner: http://maps.assessor.lacounty.gov/mappi ... l=2552-004dhmartens wrote:This link shows exactly his land in relation to the road....
He apparently leases a portion of Lots: 10, 11, 17, 18, 19 from the DWP.
I don't condone the use of boulders or blocks of concrete along the highway due to the accident/liability hazard it creates but I do like the idea of discouraging the use of the wash for dumping. My $900 carbon fiber control bar was badly damaged 3 years ago when I landed on a pile of dangerous debris that was dumped in the wash.
There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.
Pilots not already familiar with the rigors of cross-country flying need to comprehend that the vast majority of bailout landings involve trespassing on private property or violating restrictions on public lands. Get it through your heads if this is not already clear.
Due to the callous and caviler attitudes and conduct of certain pilots during the 80s and 90s, hang gliders became persona non grata along many important X/C routes and this has made it difficult for the rest of us to land without getting cited by the local sheriff's deputies for trespass then have to appear in court.
It is extremely important for everyone to act like what we are:
1 - Uninvited guests on other people's property.
2 - Ambassadors representing the Free-Flight community. (Yes, this includes PGs)
Always have your USHPA card when you fly X/C and be prepared to explain that we each carry one million dollars in liability coverage and that we have waived our rights to make a claim for damages if we are injured. The waiver was a requirement for obtaining the liability insurance. Act professional or at least diplomatic.
Be prepared to move your gear out of the way as soon as you land. There may be another glider or gliders coming in behind you that you are not aware of. Often there is very limited clean and graded area for a safe landing. This goes for the BigT Wash or anywhere else.
Be prepared to give a surface wind report via radio to any other pilots coming in. Use the human wind arrow symbol to help your fellow pilots.
Looking at the land boundaries I see the upper red rectangle showing boulders placed along the west side of the road are clearly on forest service property. It could create a terrible accident if someone used to using that turn out doesn't see the boulders.
On the issue of renting from DWP. This seems unlikely as the horse manure in the wash would contaminant Hansen Lake. As outlined in these links:
LA Storm water:
http://www.lastormwater.org/take-action ... se-owners/
Massachusetts:
http://www.mass.gov/dep/water/resources/manwater.htm
It all is possible though, that ranch is a historical Wells Fargo stable.
On the issue of renting from DWP. This seems unlikely as the horse manure in the wash would contaminant Hansen Lake. As outlined in these links:
LA Storm water:
http://www.lastormwater.org/take-action ... se-owners/
Massachusetts:
http://www.mass.gov/dep/water/resources/manwater.htm
It all is possible though, that ranch is a historical Wells Fargo stable.
It's just that as that piece of land is sure nice for our eastern flying envelope, it would be prudent to know the nature of its ownership. Silly to think that if Dr. Sxxxx E Sxxx Phd?? at the supernatural psychic center nice to us now, we can use it. They use the horses to apparently treat mental illness as well as the forced conversions of Mormon Samoans with scoliosis into Hindu Scientologists (OT Level 3). All joking aside, its some weird stuff, no wonder they are selling it. Doesn't look like it had commercial viability. I wont post any names or links, you can google it your self.
What type of lease is it? If the lease or easement they have is in appurtenant, we will soon be at the mercy of a new lease owner.
It may be that he just has a lease to operate his commercial purpose on the land, and not the ability to exclude others. All things we should know.
What type of lease is it? If the lease or easement they have is in appurtenant, we will soon be at the mercy of a new lease owner.
It may be that he just has a lease to operate his commercial purpose on the land, and not the ability to exclude others. All things we should know.
The health and economic costs of illegal dumping could be the driving force.
Water in tires lets mosquitos breed 100 times faster and with West Nile and 50 horses their could be a plague that even shuts down hang gliding. Medical waste could make it into the Hansen Lake, and PCBs into the water supply. I remember going on a cleanup party and filling about a 500 cubic foot truck.
sources:
http://www.rma.org/scrap_tires/scrap_ti ... umping.cfm
http://pulse.pharmacy.arizona.edu/resou ... umping.pdf
As a thought he might let us put inconspicuous camouflaged windsock or 2, maybe in the tree that can't be seen from the road.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkPxQlpGp0[/youtube]
Water in tires lets mosquitos breed 100 times faster and with West Nile and 50 horses their could be a plague that even shuts down hang gliding. Medical waste could make it into the Hansen Lake, and PCBs into the water supply. I remember going on a cleanup party and filling about a 500 cubic foot truck.
sources:
http://www.rma.org/scrap_tires/scrap_ti ... umping.cfm
http://pulse.pharmacy.arizona.edu/resou ... umping.pdf
As a thought he might let us put inconspicuous camouflaged windsock or 2, maybe in the tree that can't be seen from the road.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkPxQlpGp0[/youtube]
[youtube] 
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Steve90266
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