The SHGA Adventure Pass

Talk about anything hang gliding.

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Ken Andrews
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The SHGA Adventure Pass

Post by Ken Andrews »

Flying at Kagel is complicated, with few options for landing out, commercial air traffic flying through, strong desert thermals, urban development surrounding our LZ, and so on. Advancing pilots sometimes find themselves flying outside their comfort zones, and thus put both themselves and the flying privileges of the entire club at risk. A dramatic recent example was a pilot's landing at the Angeles Shooting Ranges in Kagel Canyon.

Should the SHGA take an active role to assure that pilots know our site dangers and are properly prepared before they explore very far from our LZ? If this is a good idea, how should the club go about it? Here are three possibilities:

1. We could ask our instructors to teach this material with (yet more) lessons. However, students finish their training as early Hang-2 pilots, and some of the site dangers and challenges are more relevant to advanced Hang-2 and Hang-3 pilots.

2. We could introduce a new policy of some sort that tests pilots for knowledge of emergency LZs, site dangers, etc., possibly as part of the annual membership renewal. I don't think I like this option, but it deserves mention at least.

3. Perhaps advancing pilots could explore new territory with experienced pilots, and then demonstrate their growing skills and knowledge to an Observer in order to earn an "adventure pass". This pass could work somewhat like the USHPA special skills, such as the RLF signoff or aerotow launch. In time, this adventure pass could be required for participation in SHGA competitions, and perhaps also as a prerequisite for either a Hang-3 or a Hang-4 rating. Earning the adventure pass shouldn't be a burden; it could be a chance for some challenging new flying, and a way to receive recognition for one's accomplishments.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
JT

How about...?

Post by JT »

Ken,
I believe that the best method is touched on in your third suggestion. New pilots need mentors. Rob Burgis was my personal guardian and tour guide from the day I returned to flying. Andy Pryciak and Phil Bloom coached me often. The club could help others less fortunate than me by fostering relationships between the more experienced pilots willing to slow down a bit and, especially, not interested in pushing their charges into uncomfortable situations.

There is no way to police any regulations that would restrict flying from Kagel to any other area, be it Trash or Lukens. Regulations, a "pass" requirement, won't prevent anyone from moving around the mountain. Sure, you could keep them from participating in a sanctioned comp but the other 99% of their flying... no one is watching. And we haven't even touched on a more troublesome issue: non-local, first-time H-3 or H-4 pilots. We don't even ask for ratings much of the time.

Never mind that the most sensitive, site-threatening, potential out-landings are within 200 feet of the LZ. The club avoids doom through the efforts made during initial training, which is very good thanks to the great instruction available. After training, peer pressure intervenes when bone-head maneuvers are performed... sometimes.

Safety is more of an issue for distant out-landings. Site visits, offered by instructors or tours by other pilots are the best way to familiarize new pilots with bail-out LZs and the features of less-familiar areas that help keep them from needing the bail-outs. Again, an area in which the club could foster the mentoring system.

Unfortunately, flying is in a dynamic medium: air (please, no groans for the understatement). Everybody isn't always going to make it back (boy, am I a testament to that reality). However, being shown by someone else where to go and what to expect in travels away from the immediate Kagel area would be a boon to any new pilot not sure how to progress other than "going for it" when he thinks he reached sufficient altitude. They'll make more friends sooner, too.

I almost forgot - thermalling etiquette and technique taught in the air would help many newbies.

My suggestion is that the club, if it really is interseted in pursuing your options for education in local XC for site preservation and safety, seek out willing tutors and organize a program to put them together with fledglings.

Sort of an E-Harmony for the winged set.
JBBenson
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Post by JBBenson »

Because Hang-Gliding is such an addiction, maybe "Sponsor" is better than "Mentor"..... :D
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

The "Adventure Pass" sounds like a good idea. The suggestions for improvement on it are also on the mark. I had a small thought to add:

A review of the "Fire rule" and possibly other parts of the rules would also be good before getting the Adventure Pass. Monday, I flew with a few folks at Kagel. It was a good day. However, while we flew, a fire started West of West Towers.

Knowing the 3 mile radius rule, I punched in West Towers as a way-point and stayed 3 miles East from that way-point. This gave me a buffer zone since the fire and all aircraft fighting it were at least a mile farther than West Towers. However, several other pilots didn't know the rule, and decided to land.

Now I am not one to object to them being over-cautious. Bravo for them for obeying what they thought was the rule (5 miles.) But, they could have stayed in the air and been safe and followed the rules.

Clearly we need to publicize the rules better, especially the ones that only apply under uncommon circumstances. If a circumstance happens often, then our pilots know what to do. It is the rarer things that don't get remembered. And sometimes those are the important ones! Like geting low near the gun-range and deciding to land there. Not good.

For reference, Towers is slightly more than 3 miles from the Towers
turnpoint. So if the fire is West of West Towers, you can always fly as far
West as the normal towers.

Also for reference: The 3 mile rule is from the fire fighting OPERATIONS, not just the fire itself. So, if they are setting up a staging area to take water from behind the dam, then that is fire fighting operations, even if the fire itself is 5, 10 or 20 miles away. If they are cicling 2 miles closer to us than the fire before going into the blaze, then where the aircraft are circling is also part of the fire fighting operation.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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Christian
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Post by Christian »

I like Number 3, and I think it could be effective in some simple ways.

--Name 10 SHGA "Mentors". Their role is to step forward while pilots are waiting for rides up the hill and "demonstrate" whatever point occurs to them. Phill did this for a bunch of H2s once (after almost being killed by us on the hill) by commanding attention, putting us in a circle, and "thermalling" around (and over) the park benches and tables.
The Mentors would know each other, and informally communicate current issues, like landing in gun ranges.

--All H3 and H4s, to get an Adventure Pass, must get Mentor approval--meaning five Mentors agree they are not menace to civilization. This would be an opportunity for passing on group wisdom, such as, "your takeoff Saturday looked like pogo stick, you too old to run like the rest of us?"

The professional training here is world-class. When problems come up, it;s not usually with students.
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Vrezh
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Pissed off

Post by Vrezh »

George writes:
"However, several other pilots didn't know the rule, and decided to land".
I am the "several" pilot and I know the rule. One would exercise common sense and at least stay east of the dam during that fire near 14 freeway, knowing, they might need to get water from the reservoir. You decided to fly on the west side anyway, because you went to west towers, punched the waypoint and tried to stay within 3 miles of it. Brilliant!!!
What pisses me off is that not only you judge me on your own wrong assumptions (didn't know the rule), but also try to represent your wrong decisions as solid and inarguable truth, just because you said so.
Vrezh.
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

Vrezh is mistaken about several things. I was NOT talking about him. I had forgotten that he was even flying that day, although I remember it now.

There were at least three other pilots who I talked to that day who told me that they landed because they thought the rule was 5 miles. One said that the rule was the only reason he landed. Two others said that it was one of the reasons, but that they needed to use the restroom soon anyway. They would have flown at least somewhat longer if they had known the 3 mile rule instead of thinking it was a 5 mile rule.

His point about the dam is generally a good one, except that in this case, the fire fighters weren't getting water from the dam. I was at 5500' at Towers and could see clearly that they were coming in from another direction. I know this because I checked repeatedly and often. I followed the rule, both in letter and spirit.

The part of the rule that applies is this: Flying is prohibited in the event of a helicopter rescue or aerial fire fighting operation, within three miles of the rescue or fire fighting operation.

There were NO fire fighting operations within 3 miles of me at any time. None. Nada. Zip. No fire. No water drops. No rescues. No water fetching. What wrong decision did I make? Offending Vrezh by having legitimate, rule-abiding fun while he was on the ground? Paying enough attention so that I could make a rational decision instead of panicing?

And as for Vrezh's contention that I went to West Towers, where the heck did he get that from? I DID NOT GO TO WEST TOWERS THAT DAY. In fact, I commented on that very thing several times in the LZ. Going there would have violated the rule, so I didn't do it. I have that waypoint in my GPS, and simply called it up so that I could see how far I was from it. I used that information to stay at least 3 miles AWAY from it, not within three miles of it, as Vrezh's post states.

Vrezh, there are other pilots besides you. Really, there are. Some of them were there that day. At least three TOLD me why they landed, and it was at least in part due to a misunderstanding of the rule. That is all I was saying in my post.

I'm sorry you pissed yourself off by assuming that I was talking about you when I wasn't.

And I'm sorry the rest of you have to wade through this off-topic junk.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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Chip
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Let's all agree about one thing

Post by Chip »

Certainly opting for the conservative approach and landing was within the spirit of things and pilots should be commended for doing so. :wink: It sounded as though you were attmpting to do that in your post.

But your point would have been that a clearer understanding of the rules would have resulted in a longer flight for everyone that felt obligated to land.

Don't forget, there will always be another day to fly. It's most certainly the case with Vrezh since he's out there so often :D
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

Chip is right.

1) I commend anyone who is being cautious.
2) A firm understanding of the rules can enhance your safety, and also your enjoyment.
3) I am always in favor of the sentiment that there will always be another day to fly.

Thanks Chip!

When you understand the rules, you don't need to land just because you THINK you might break them by continuing your flight. You can follow the rules and still keep flying. Or, if you are required to land, you don't have to second guess yourself. You'll know!
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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BudRob
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Post by BudRob »

Hey, what happened to the original topic of "Adventure Passes"? I would like to bring this discussion back on track.

Ken,

I also like option number 3. Mentoring or "sponsoring" is the only practical option. I for one am willing to share information with anyone who asks. I'm sure the other "hotshots" feel the same way.

Though I may not look it (??), I am totally approachable by any new up-and-comer that wants information about new areas East or West. I have "intimate" knowledge of the mountain from the West Towers to Mt. Lukens and everywhere in between. This includes information about where NOT to be (like blocking the path of 737's...), as well as where the "house" thermals are located. The information is available at all times, both on the ground and in the air by radio.

If you want this information and are too shy to ask - get over it! I will offer a beer if it will help.

Rob BEERgis
JT

Mentors

Post by JT »

As Rob says, many of us are willing to help others expand their knowledge of the mountain and thermalling. I had an extensive conversation with Greblo about the possibilities for a program sanctioned by the club. The prerequisite for Joe is that he be involved with any pilots that choose to be a part of a mentoring system when Hang 2 pilots are the students, as they are still his or Hungary Joe's responsibility.

I think mentoring should be flight-based as well as informational, particularly, for developing thermal skills. I have already informed Greblo of my interest and will be participating shortly.

The BOD will need to discuss this further to formalize all this as a program that will implement the Adventure Pass. I will continue to exchange information with Joe G. as my part in this coalesces.

Hopefully, the BOD sees the Pass as an "achievement" badge and not as an opportunity for regulation.
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Lucky 13
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Post by Lucky 13 »

I've gotten high enough to go places before, but I haven't left Kagel yet to go anywhere. One thing that would help newer people like me would be labeled arial photos showing emergency lz's, and places to avoid. A video would help also.
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DigitalBishop
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Post by DigitalBishop »

Lucky 13 wrote:I've gotten high enough to go places before, but I haven't left Kagel yet to go anywhere. One thing that would help newer people like me would be labeled arial photos showing emergency lz's, and places to avoid. A video would help also.
Or better yet, just use Google Earth. Don't we have a file that has all the lz's listed for that?
Jamie Krasnoo
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Ken Andrews
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Adventure Pass

Post by Ken Andrews »

This adventure pass discussion has been dormant for a long time, but it's not forgotten. A draft adventure pass is here.

My hope is that instructors would encourage their students to earn the Adventure Pass as an advanced Hang-2 or early Hang-3 pilot. Currently pilots are required to fly with streamers on their kingposts until they earn their Hang-3 ratings; perhaps our instructors would consider the Adventure Pass as an alternative for streamer-snipping.

My intent is to make this an opportunity for achievement, not a requirement for anything. As the Pass says, it's analogous to a USHPA special skill (like the Restricted Landing Field skill, or aerotowing), but this covers the flying challenges specific to the Sylmar area.

Furthermore, this could be a basis for a mentoring system. The primary tasks include learning the challenges of our flying site, walking emergency LZs, and landing out somewhere. Perhaps a pilot seeking an Adventure Pass could team up with a Hang-4 mentor, and both would get some interesting flying out of the partnership. Of course, it's in everyone's interest for the potential mentor, student, and student's instructor to meet and discuss their plans in advance before going adventuring.

As always, I'd welcome comments and suggestions.
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Foster
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Re: Adventure Pass

Post by Foster »

Ken Andrews wrote:This adventure pass discussion has been dormant for a long time, but it's not forgotten. A draft adventure pass is here.
I got an error for the TFR link in your draft pdf, but this one is currently working: http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

I think everybody wants to do the right things. The mistakes are made from lack of knowedge. Mentors are great, but some of the information does not have to be distributed one on one. We have a huge bulletin board at the LZ. I suggest we fill it up with laminated information that everyone should know before flying.

I know we have some of this and it's well done, but it needs expanded.

1) Maps including alt. LZs, "No fly" areas, "Never land here areas", etc. Arial photos are best. It never looks like a map from up there.

2) Launch, flying and landing tips specific to our site for visitors and newbies.

I know when I go to another site my first question is: What should I know about this place that will keep me out of trouble? It's never all there to see, so you have to ask and then you probably will not get complete info. If it's written: it's always there, doesn't forget something and puts everyone on the same page.

I've been flying at Kagel my whole career and I'm not entirely sure what LZs are still usable, or what issues might currently be hot that I need to be careful about.

Mentors are great, but they're all old and smelly. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just sayin'
Flyyyyy
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Christian
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Post by Christian »

--Hang 2s need instructor sign-off for adventure pass.
--Hang 3/4, mentor signoff OK.

I'm just not sure a Hang 2 with 15 or 20 hours is ready to be led to an outlanding by a mentor (I wasn't). I figure only an instructor knows an individual's strengths and weaknesses, judgement, etc.

I think it's a great idea and will line up for my Adventure Pass when the program launches.
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lswendt
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Go Home (well, at least start there)

Post by lswendt »

The SHGA Web site consists of MORE than just the Pilot Forum. If you were ever to venture to the Home Page and look at the navigation bar on the left, under Flight Park Info there is an item called "Site Dangers." There you will find most of the information about specific Kagel conditions being discussed as well as a list and discussion of alternative LZs.

http://www.shga.com/dangeroussiteinfo.asp

lw
JBBenson
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Post by JBBenson »

There is more than the forum? :)

I think what is being talked about is a visual guide, like the mentioned photographs of LZ's, and not just a list, which is not very clear to someone who is not very experienced.
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

I actually had not seen that section on the website. That's great and I learned alot. Thanks Iswendt. Now we need it at the LZ where visiting pilots can see it. It would really help to graphically represent the areas in a photo. I'm not entirely sure I could accurately find all the areas listed from the air. On future flights I'm going to try to locate all the things listed for my own preparation. Flying to Trash would be like an exotic cross country excursion for me. What are the local customs there? Do they eat with their fingers?
Flyyyyy
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