The Culture of our LZ

Talk about anything hang gliding.

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JD
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The Culture of our LZ

Post by JD » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:13 am

The backbiting and slander need to end. No pilot in this or any other club need to repeatedly hear from third-party and visiting pilots how badly the pilots in the LZ are looking forward to seeing them crash, get injured or killed. This goes far beyond tiresome. There is video recorded by third parties in which the same offending individuals can be heard giggling about how they hope an incoming pilots crashes. Like it was some kind of a joke. What kind of people say things like this to their peers, over and over again, year after year?

There was one pilot who repeatedly joked while driving up the mountain how they started a betting pool about when another pilot would die. This same pilot launched unhooked and nearly crippled himself about an hour later. Instant karma? Why even temp fate in the first place?

Is it self-perpetuating? Some of the backbiting falsehoods are about incidents over five years old yet they still get repeated. Is this the kind of club you want to be a part of? What happens when slander is accepted as normal practice? Does it become a self-fulfilling prophesy? Does this make for safer and more responsible pilot? Does this attract new members to the club and grow the sport?

How long before the next serious or fatal accident? Anyone taking bets? :cry:

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OP
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Post by OP » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:50 pm

I agree. Less trash talking in the LZ. That's what the internet is for. Also if you are old, irrelevant, crazy, and bitter (a la: Tad Eareckson - Rick Masters) then keep it up or every go 'crazy' with the trash talk.

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JD
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Post by JD » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:56 pm

OP wrote:I agree. Less trash talking in the LZ. That's what the internet is for. Also if you are old, irrelevant, crazy, and bitter (a la: Tad Eareckson - Rick Masters) then keep it up or every go 'crazy' with the trash talk.
But doesn't "old, irrelevant, crazy, and bitter" already describe a few too many active HG pilots who don't post online? :lol: :lol:

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Don
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SHGA is bad???

Post by Don » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:38 pm

I can only comment on the reaction when someone lets the nose of their glider touch the ground and the immediate comments from the pilots in the LZ. SHGA is a near model of perfection compared to the large number of F'ing A-holes at that large club just 50 miles East of Sylmar. Talk about a group of barn-animals when making fun of less than perfect landings!

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JD
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Are We Up To The Task?

Post by JD » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:52 pm

Don wrote:I can only comment on the reaction when someone lets the nose of their glider touch the ground and the immediate comments from the pilots in the LZ. SHGA is a near model of perfection compared to the large number of F'ing A-holes at that large club just 50 miles East of Sylmar. Talk about a group of barn-animals when making fun of less than perfect landings!

Don you are correct.

There are a number of LZ trolls at Andy Jagoff Airpark who not only take excess delight in yelling, "Whack!" but start their yells before the deed is even done. If the pilot avoids the nose beak the trolls can be heard choking on their words. I have this recorded too. Sylmar pilots just sort of mutter, "whack" underneath their breath.

Whether it's in-your-face or behind-your-back, online, off-line, in-person, out-of-body, none of it ever helps anyone become a better or safer pilot. It also drives people away from the sport or at least away from that club.

If nothing else, it would be better if pilots yelled, "Go get some coaching for that!" or they could gossip behind each others backs about how to motivate or persuade the pilot in question to get some needed help. There's no reason the Greek Chorus can't change it's tune to something constructive.

I'm not saying anyone needs to be as sweet and pleasant as Fred Roberts. If pilots are that sensitive they should look for another sport. I have nothing against good-natured teasing either. But there's a kind of speech that boarders on hate and it's alive and well in the sport of hang gliding. Why not set an example for ourselves and others that we can have a sense of humor and relax and still kid or tease each other while at the same time encouraging better flying habits?

I think the SHGA can muster it.

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Post by Steve D » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:53 pm

OP wrote:I agree. Less trash talking in the LZ. That's what the internet is for. Also if you are old, irrelevant, crazy, and bitter (a la: Tad Eareckson - Rick Masters) then keep it up or every go 'crazy' with the trash talk.
I see that you somehow managed to spell Eareckson correctly. That's a significant achievement for you, Orion.

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JD
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Post by JD » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:34 am

Steve D, Isn't op's name spelled, Orian. Tad's not going to be very pleased. :lol: :lol:
Cheers,
JD

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gregangsten
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Correctness

Post by gregangsten » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:54 am

I generally agree with the first post here but frankly, if I whack and don't hear the chorus sing I am very disheartened. It means I must be so bad that it's expected and they are starting to feel sorry for me.

You have to distinguish between fun and mean-spiritedness.

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JD
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Post by JD » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:29 am

gregangsten wrote:I generally agree with the first post here but frankly, if I whack and don't hear the chorus sing I am very disheartened. It means I must be so bad that it's expected and they are starting to feel sorry for me.

You have to distinguish between fun and mean-spiritedness.

Greg,
There can be a very thin line between fun (good-natured teasing) and mean-spiritedness.

I had a similar thought too. If I pound in and the other pilots just shrug and sigh then hand me a pity beer I worry. I mean I'm gaining a lot of weight here. :lol: But seriously, does this mean poor landing technique is now acceptable on a regular basis?

But seriously, a culture of indifference to unsafe technique is probably no better or possibly even worse than a culture of ridicule toward unsafe technique. Obviously I'm not talking about the other week when I photographed the president of Wills Wing beaking-in a brand new T2C in an attempt to win a dollar from the the vice president. That's like a one-in-ten thousand landing whack. And there was a dollar bill plus pride at stake.

We don't always chose when and where we are landing even when fishbowl flying. We do get sudden wind reversals and traffic jams at Sylmar forcing pilots to come in from different directions or within seconds of each other.

Who cares whether landings are textbook no-step flares. That's bunk anyway. I'm the guy who lands in real shitholes and we better be prepared to use any technique necessary to keep ourselves then our gliders in one piece. If a technique works for a specific pilot then it's the best technique for that pilot and that pilot only. It doesn't help anyone when pilots ridicule technique that contradicts their own technique. That's how pilots break bones and aluminum.

The same holds true for flying. Not everyone can thermal coordinated with others. They need to pull out and go back in below the gaggle if they can't mesh safely. Or they need to find another core someplace that doesn't overlap. Or seek some coaching if it's you or suggest coaching if it's not you.

Getting back to the landing thing. I have posted elsewhere that the Big-O Loop at Crestline is operational. The launch is 390' above the LZ. It is possible to not only get in a lot of launches and landings in one day without having to break down your glider but the vehicle holds two assembled gliders at once and it's only $5 per pilot ride up plus day-use fee if not a CSS member. We could always pool funds to use for Big-O Loop rides for pilots who need landing or launch work rather than just whatever it is that we are currently doing.

Big-O Loop: http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/node/1496

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Post by dhmartens » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:31 pm

5 theatrical traditions and where they come from
http://www.history.co.uk/shows/articles ... -come-from

1. NEVER say good luck, say ‘Break a leg’
It has also been traced back to 1766 when Samuel Foote, the Manager of the London’s Little Theatre, was thrown from his horse and broke his leg. Foote had been riding with the Duke of York, who had given Foote a bad horse as a prank. The Duke of York felt so bad about the accident he granted Foote the theatre license he had spent years lobbying for. The Little Theatre became the Theatre Royal Haymarket and the saying ‘Break a leg’ came to represent achieving success out of disaster.

One Our Lady of Loretto Air Flight Protection Pendant Medal for Necklace 1" Catholic Gift
http://www.amazon.com/Loretto-Protectio ... of+Loretto

Image

This medallion could reflect the ill wishes back to the person making the wish.

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rebardan
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Post by rebardan » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:59 am

talcum powder?

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OP
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Re: Correctness

Post by OP » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:21 pm

gregangsten wrote:I generally agree with the first post here but frankly, if I whack and don't hear the chorus sing I am very disheartened. It means I must be so bad that it's expected and they are starting to feel sorry for me.

You have to distinguish between fun and mean-spiritedness.

Greg, I've got your back.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2JwPMBm_PU[/youtube]

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gregangsten
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Whack

Post by gregangsten » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:08 pm

Clearly the hand of a malevolent God is at work here.

greblo
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Post by greblo » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:22 pm

This is just one more case of "men being men". Not much different than the fun of foul language, or the fun of scattering beer cans across the lawn, or the fun of peeing on car tires or in the bushes in the lz.

Most of this is either viewed as harmless fun, or as indications of poor character, or something in-between, and you get to choose which.

We can do just about whatever we like, but don't complain about the consequences or our image in the community. I can't tell you how many spectators have told me that they were surprised by the calls of Whack, even the president of the Sylmar Neighborhood Council on one of her recent visits.

The answer I get most often when I bring it up is "if the spectator's don't have a sense of humor, it's their problem".

I like discussions like this because they help me make up my own mind.
Thanks Jonathan
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson

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gregangsten
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Whackin

Post by gregangsten » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:42 pm

I must be one of the low-life barbarians because I can't see what all the hand-wringing is about. I never see anyone making any fun of someone who has a seriously dangerous landing or gets hurt. If I were so thin skinned as to get upset over a video like this one I'd spend most of my life a bloody mess.

Then again, I'm a Buster Keaton fan. Pratfalls can be pretty funny.

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OP
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Post by OP » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:22 pm

Greg, I take offence at your lack of offence.

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Post by greblo » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:38 pm

Absolutely a good point Greg. It's not possible to convince a substantial majority that this and other similar expressions cause any significant problems. As such, it should be left up to the individual.

Those who wish to yell whack will, and those that don't won't. The discussion simply brings reflection.

No need to look deeper than that.
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson

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Steve90266
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LZ culture

Post by Steve90266 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:43 am

I think I'did like to weigh in here, I tend to side with Greg. There is a culture among hang glider pilots that is unique among outdoor sports. What we do is dangerous. We do everything we can to mitigate that danger, but in the end, the possibility of death rides along with us on every flight. A big part of that mitigation is honing our flight skills. Launching and landing are a BIG part of that.
There is a certain amount of angst the builds up during the landing phase. Not just for the pilot, but for the pilot/observers on the ground. We all know that there is added danger in this regime. That's why we all tend to stop what we're doing whenever we see a fellow pilot coming in. In some sense, we are all riding along with that pilot, rooting for him/her to pull it off without a hitch.
On occasion, a pilot will have a "rough" landing, and prang the nose. Those watching may yell "Whack", but I don'the believe this is done in a mean-spirited way. My interpretation is that it's a way for the observers to simultaneously acknowledge the minor misfortune in a somewhat harmless, somewhat humoroue way, release the angst that led up to the event, and subconsciously remind themselves that they could be next.
I've never heard anyone yell " whack" during a serious crash. Most people are too busy running towards the pilot to help.
I agree with Greg. If I make a minor mistake during landing and prang the nose, and nobody says anything, it means they don't care enough to comment. It also means I'm not part of the tribe.
Please, by all means, if I whack, feel free to call me on it. If I'm not seriously injurred, I'll be right there laughing with you. But you better have a cold beer waiting for me! If it's more serious than that, please come help.
Steve Murillo

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Don
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Look to those that you strive to be like

Post by Don » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:15 pm

Over the years I've observed hundreds of pilots. Some have been absolute A-holes, most are reasonable, and a small handful I almost "look up to". The top three of that handful are Joe Greblo, Rob McKenzie, and Owen Morse. Besides their never ending contributions to the sport I've noticed something else - I have NEVER heard any of them yell WHACK! A few people have class - the rest of you ... ???

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dhmartens
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Post by dhmartens » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:49 pm

I was sitting directly behind Op when he was chanting "Quack, Quack, Quack,Quack..." I approved because I didn't think he was yelling Whack.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AywDkFMAF3s[/youtube]

These Ducks do a better job of landing
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS1TgNoTHGQ[/youtube]
It could have been Lady of Loretto that took out his foot, we will have to wait for the video.

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