Vrezh wrote about his flight to Wilson and back in the Amazing Flights section. In passing he mentioned that Ron and Sebastian had to land out near Santa Anita Race Track. A new member to the forum (MikeB) said his daughter had seen a glider land in the area. He also mentioned that the police may have been involved unless that was a separate landing that he was mentioning. I wasn't really sure.
The whole thing raised some questions as far as landing out. I know that there are areas that are defined as relatively safe to land at if we sink out and can't make it back to the LZ. What if we get caught in a situation where we can't reach any of the designated landing out zones and we are forced to land in an area that is questionable? What if a concerned citizen calls the police and they come? What is that concerned citizen confronts you? Has anyone ever dealt with this type of situation before where they were forced to land out at a public park or clearing and the rangers or police got involved?
What is the best way to deal with this type of situation?
Landing out? Cops and concerned citizens
Moderator: Chip
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DigitalBishop
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:56 pm
- Location: Reseda, CA
Landing out? Cops and concerned citizens
Jamie Krasnoo
Landing Out
I went on the 2006 Winds of a Hurricane trip to Utah and on the second day I landed in a large open field that had been designated as the bailout L/Z. This field was nothing but dead natural grass and a few weeds.
Immediately after landing the owner drove up to me and was irate ! He informed me that this was private property and did not want anyone on his property. I remained polite and constantly said I was sorry - but that I did not have any choice. He informed me that I should not have launched if it meant that I had to land on his property. This conversation went on for 15 - 20 minutes. I finally got his name and phone number in the hopes that someone more pervasive (Hungry Joe) could convince him to grant us permission to land there in the future.
The moral of the story? Just stay calm and ask for forgiveness. If they have a gun - your in deep do-do
Immediately after landing the owner drove up to me and was irate ! He informed me that this was private property and did not want anyone on his property. I remained polite and constantly said I was sorry - but that I did not have any choice. He informed me that I should not have launched if it meant that I had to land on his property. This conversation went on for 15 - 20 minutes. I finally got his name and phone number in the hopes that someone more pervasive (Hungry Joe) could convince him to grant us permission to land there in the future.
The moral of the story? Just stay calm and ask for forgiveness. If they have a gun - your in deep do-do
A few years ago, I flew from Avenue L to the the West. I sank out near a Castle that had a close dirt airstrip. (Really, there is a castle there!) I landed on the dirt airstrip and didn't even get my harness off before one of the landowners came racing up in his surplus jeep. He had is hand on his gun and the gun half out of it's holster. 
He kept his hand on his gun like that for 20 minutes while I sweet-talked him. "No, I didn't buzz your house, I would never do that. Yes, I am sorry, but the lift stopped, and it was an emergency. Yes I understand that you don't live out here because you want company. What a lovely place you have. I can't believe those dirt-bikers cut your fence to look at the castle. I'm packing as quickly as I can, sir. Yes, I will tell everyone I know not to land here. Blah, Blah, Blah."
He ended up giving me a ride to the main road. This was a good thing, as the nearest edge of his property was a half mile away, and the nearest paved road was another half mile and across a dry wash. But it looked like such a GOOD place to land.
He was very close to losing it when he arrived, and claimed (take this with a grain of salt) that his partners wouldn't even have talked, but would have shot me on sight.
On the other hand, most folks are indifferent or happy to see you. Just keep your cool, be polite and never never say anything to make them feel stupid or put-upon. Agree with anything short of letting them take your glider/gear, no matter how silly they sound. Remind them it was an emergency. Complement their property. And remember, it is THEIR property!
He kept his hand on his gun like that for 20 minutes while I sweet-talked him. "No, I didn't buzz your house, I would never do that. Yes, I am sorry, but the lift stopped, and it was an emergency. Yes I understand that you don't live out here because you want company. What a lovely place you have. I can't believe those dirt-bikers cut your fence to look at the castle. I'm packing as quickly as I can, sir. Yes, I will tell everyone I know not to land here. Blah, Blah, Blah."
He ended up giving me a ride to the main road. This was a good thing, as the nearest edge of his property was a half mile away, and the nearest paved road was another half mile and across a dry wash. But it looked like such a GOOD place to land.
He was very close to losing it when he arrived, and claimed (take this with a grain of salt) that his partners wouldn't even have talked, but would have shot me on sight.
On the other hand, most folks are indifferent or happy to see you. Just keep your cool, be polite and never never say anything to make them feel stupid or put-upon. Agree with anything short of letting them take your glider/gear, no matter how silly they sound. Remind them it was an emergency. Complement their property. And remember, it is THEIR property!
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
When Landing out, pick a heavily traffic area
After years of landing out, I have grown fearful of pounding-in hard enough to need medial assistance when landing at an unknown place. For that reason, I land where paved roads converge so people are never far (the reason I usually give is that I don't want to carry the glider, but actually I want an audience). George identified another reason to land in a crowd: anti-social hermits usually homestead in more remote locations.
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DigitalBishop
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:56 pm
- Location: Reseda, CA
Thanks for the great answers guys.
Considering our sport is one of the more dangerous (if you do stupid things) and more unusual than most. Where boundaries are defined by invisible lines and walls in the air and hard lines on maps. The gliders that we use are still considered so insignificant by the Government as to not require license but significant enough that they pay attention to where we land and where we fly. If I ever get in to a situation where I need to land right now because I don't have a choice and the only choice I have is the open area of a public park and I happen to get the attention of the authorities. Can they arrest me for landing at that park?
Considering our sport is one of the more dangerous (if you do stupid things) and more unusual than most. Where boundaries are defined by invisible lines and walls in the air and hard lines on maps. The gliders that we use are still considered so insignificant by the Government as to not require license but significant enough that they pay attention to where we land and where we fly. If I ever get in to a situation where I need to land right now because I don't have a choice and the only choice I have is the open area of a public park and I happen to get the attention of the authorities. Can they arrest me for landing at that park?
Jamie Krasnoo
Yes, you can get arrested for landing in a park, if:
-- a city law prohibits hang gliding (ie Pasadena)
-- you endanger someone in the park (ie you knock down someone on landing)
-- a cop decides you need to be ticketed, arrested etc (if you break a law, and have a bad attitude).
Flying comes with the responsibility to know all applicable laws in the air (when to fly) and on the ground (where to land). Ignorance is no excuse, but forgiveness is a lot easier to get than permission (as George knows).
-- a city law prohibits hang gliding (ie Pasadena)
-- you endanger someone in the park (ie you knock down someone on landing)
-- a cop decides you need to be ticketed, arrested etc (if you break a law, and have a bad attitude).
Flying comes with the responsibility to know all applicable laws in the air (when to fly) and on the ground (where to land). Ignorance is no excuse, but forgiveness is a lot easier to get than permission (as George knows).
The answer is; you shouldn't get into that situation.
At least at this stage of your HG carrier.
In fact, you shouldn't even worry about this sort of things. Your objective should be expanding your radius within the limits of your abilities.
I see it every now and then, Jamie, when the desire overrides the judgment and the pilot ends up somewhere but home LZ. When it happens over and over again, doesn't it tell you something?
This is how Jim Dim International Airport (AKA Big T Wash) was established
. (Jim, I love you, brother).
My point is; every time you venture out, your goal should be definitely, positively, 100% sure, make it back home.
As you progress in your flying carrier, you gain more experience, polish your thermaling skills, you learn more about making low saves, finding lift in an unfamiliar places and picking better glide lines. This will give you more confidence to go further and further every time.
Read more about XC techniques and learn more about how to pick your LZ-s and such.
And for now, forget about landing in the Public Parks, Firing Range, Golf Courses etc...
Cheers.
Vrezh.
At least at this stage of your HG carrier.
In fact, you shouldn't even worry about this sort of things. Your objective should be expanding your radius within the limits of your abilities.
I see it every now and then, Jamie, when the desire overrides the judgment and the pilot ends up somewhere but home LZ. When it happens over and over again, doesn't it tell you something?
This is how Jim Dim International Airport (AKA Big T Wash) was established
. (Jim, I love you, brother). My point is; every time you venture out, your goal should be definitely, positively, 100% sure, make it back home.
As you progress in your flying carrier, you gain more experience, polish your thermaling skills, you learn more about making low saves, finding lift in an unfamiliar places and picking better glide lines. This will give you more confidence to go further and further every time.
Read more about XC techniques and learn more about how to pick your LZ-s and such.
And for now, forget about landing in the Public Parks, Firing Range, Golf Courses etc...
Cheers.
Vrezh.
It's good to think about it even if you never plan to do it.
The first obligation in an aviation emergency is not to hurt anybody else. This means choosing the lifeguard stand to crash into instead of the sunbathers. In powered aircraft, the deal is you agree to die rather than kill. Really sobers pilots up over populated areas.
The second obligation is to yourelf. Land safe. If you get a ticket, pay it. If you get in the newspapers and hang gliding gets banned for a hundred miles, well, that's Vrezh's point: gotta know what you're doing, no excuse for not knowing.
Some day we will have a Google Earth index to every landable spot in range of Sylmar, with photos of the terrain, landing notes and big red Xs to warn us away from irritable hermits....
The first obligation in an aviation emergency is not to hurt anybody else. This means choosing the lifeguard stand to crash into instead of the sunbathers. In powered aircraft, the deal is you agree to die rather than kill. Really sobers pilots up over populated areas.
The second obligation is to yourelf. Land safe. If you get a ticket, pay it. If you get in the newspapers and hang gliding gets banned for a hundred miles, well, that's Vrezh's point: gotta know what you're doing, no excuse for not knowing.
Some day we will have a Google Earth index to every landable spot in range of Sylmar, with photos of the terrain, landing notes and big red Xs to warn us away from irritable hermits....
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DigitalBishop
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:56 pm
- Location: Reseda, CA
I don't plan on doing it. I think Joe is doing a very good job in making me a conservative pilot. However I don't see a problem in being prepared for a situation like this in case it happens and becomes imminent and unavoidable. Especially for beginners like me. I think its better to be prepared than to put myself in a situation where panic may result from the unknown. I think we can agree that in this sport panic kills.
Jamie Krasnoo
Glad to see folks are talking about this stuff.
By the way, here's a trivia question: What are the two most important Cross Country skills. There is one that is far and away more important than all others, and the second one is far and away more important than numbers 3-gazillion.
Hint: It isn't thermalling skill, or ability to find thermals. It isn't the ability to spot clouds or pick a good "line". It isn't any of the things talked about when discussing the "top gun" pilots.
Answer:
1) The ability to select a landing zone that you have never seen before, from the air, and to successfully (read safely for you and others) land in it. Hopefully, that includes the ability to assess these fields quickly, and to know that you have such fields within a comfortable glide. In other words: The ability to "land out". If you cannot do this, you have no business going XC except under very controlled conditions with guidance.
2) The judgment to know when to go XC and when not to do it, and when to quit and when to continue. This includes knowing where you are allowed to be (airspace.) If you are "pushing it" when you shouldn't, even #1 above might not save you....
All other skills, while important, are less important than the two above.
By the way, here's a trivia question: What are the two most important Cross Country skills. There is one that is far and away more important than all others, and the second one is far and away more important than numbers 3-gazillion.
Hint: It isn't thermalling skill, or ability to find thermals. It isn't the ability to spot clouds or pick a good "line". It isn't any of the things talked about when discussing the "top gun" pilots.
Answer:
1) The ability to select a landing zone that you have never seen before, from the air, and to successfully (read safely for you and others) land in it. Hopefully, that includes the ability to assess these fields quickly, and to know that you have such fields within a comfortable glide. In other words: The ability to "land out". If you cannot do this, you have no business going XC except under very controlled conditions with guidance.
2) The judgment to know when to go XC and when not to do it, and when to quit and when to continue. This includes knowing where you are allowed to be (airspace.) If you are "pushing it" when you shouldn't, even #1 above might not save you....
All other skills, while important, are less important than the two above.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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skygeek AKA Seabass
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- Contact:
Landing out
This past Sunday Ron Wienner & I were at MT Wilson & decided to land instead of trying to make it back to Kagel, our decision was not based on safety it was based on the fact that a couple of weeks ago one of our club members won $96,000.00 at a horse race, so we thought we would try our luck at Santa Anita, when we arived there we realized that there was not a car or horse in sight, so we both landed safetly went & purchased lottery tickets instead.
Heres the real story.
We did not think we could make it back safetly, we had a 8-14mph W/N/W wind that was not helping either. We heard on the radio that Vrez made it back by the skin of his teeth approaching E. Lukens not a good place to be low. We were goint to continue to San Dimas golf coarse but our instruments said no, so we saw the Santa Anita race track & golf coarse, when we arrived we had plenty of time to discuss on the radio, if we should put it down in the parking lot or this long West to East running fairway at the S/W corner of the golf coarse. There were little tiny men on the golf coarse, we did not want to interupt there game, so we focused on the North parking lot it was closest to the street & it looked like you could land a Cesna & you could drive your car right in, our decision was reinforsed when we saw Dana parked & giving us wind direction & pointing out this huge flag in the middle of the race coarse, the wind was 8-10mph W/N/W, Ron Landed first then I landed right in front of the car. Security did show up soon after, we told them are situation they were totaly cool Ron was the hangliding embassodor & invited one guy that was interested to come & visit the LZ he might do a tandem. We got out of there as fast as we could & everyting turned out fine.
When we arrived at the LZ & heard the stories of the return flight from Cutter arriving at East Luckens at 4300 the lowest he had ever been there & Vrez around the same area at 4,000, Ron & I felt better about our decission.
When comming out to land I saw some other possible LZs but they did not look as safe, it will be nice if & when we start marking bail out LZs with Google earth that we can use, as for our decission on where we landed I do not recommend it & do not incourage anyone unless it is the last resort. Politically it was not a good idea.
Heres the real story.
We did not think we could make it back safetly, we had a 8-14mph W/N/W wind that was not helping either. We heard on the radio that Vrez made it back by the skin of his teeth approaching E. Lukens not a good place to be low. We were goint to continue to San Dimas golf coarse but our instruments said no, so we saw the Santa Anita race track & golf coarse, when we arrived we had plenty of time to discuss on the radio, if we should put it down in the parking lot or this long West to East running fairway at the S/W corner of the golf coarse. There were little tiny men on the golf coarse, we did not want to interupt there game, so we focused on the North parking lot it was closest to the street & it looked like you could land a Cesna & you could drive your car right in, our decision was reinforsed when we saw Dana parked & giving us wind direction & pointing out this huge flag in the middle of the race coarse, the wind was 8-10mph W/N/W, Ron Landed first then I landed right in front of the car. Security did show up soon after, we told them are situation they were totaly cool Ron was the hangliding embassodor & invited one guy that was interested to come & visit the LZ he might do a tandem. We got out of there as fast as we could & everyting turned out fine.
When we arrived at the LZ & heard the stories of the return flight from Cutter arriving at East Luckens at 4300 the lowest he had ever been there & Vrez around the same area at 4,000, Ron & I felt better about our decission.
When comming out to land I saw some other possible LZs but they did not look as safe, it will be nice if & when we start marking bail out LZs with Google earth that we can use, as for our decission on where we landed I do not recommend it & do not incourage anyone unless it is the last resort. Politically it was not a good idea.
One thing to keep in mind when landing near roads, is, that's where powerlines usually are.
A pilot landed on the roof of my parents house in Austin TX years ago, but it wasn't a hang glider, it was a hot air balloon. We shot him a few times, with a camera, and got some pictures. He just got low and just barely touched near the chimney, then went back up.
A pilot landed on the roof of my parents house in Austin TX years ago, but it wasn't a hang glider, it was a hot air balloon. We shot him a few times, with a camera, and got some pictures. He just got low and just barely touched near the chimney, then went back up.
That's one of the best tips I've ever heard. Very valuable, and a great thread in general.stebbins wrote: There is one that is far and away more important than all others,
1) The ability to select a landing zone that you have never seen before, from the air, and to successfully (read safely for you and others) land in it.
"Trust...but verify" Uncle Ronnie
"Read my lips...no new taxes" Bush the Elder
"You're doin' a heck of a job, ______(Brownie, Gonzo, KR et al) Bush the Junior
"Read my lips...no new taxes" Bush the Elder
"You're doin' a heck of a job, ______(Brownie, Gonzo, KR et al) Bush the Junior
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SHGA Communications
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:20 am
- Location: Hang Gliding Capital of the World
Landing Out - A Lawyer’s View of the Worst Case Scenario
Landing Out - A Lawyer’s View of the Worst Case Scenario
One of the unique challenges of cross country flying is picking an LZ from the air, evaluating the terrain, fences, wires and other potential obstacles, the wind direction and speed, the extent of wind shadows from structures or trees, the slope, and all the other factors that can make or break a landing. There’s one really important factor that is more difficult to evaluate from the air - - the attitude of the landowner towards landings on his property. Difficult, but not impossible to judge. Although some landowners are gracious and accommodating, don’t count on it. Take as a given that many people do not welcome trespassing on their property. Then consider other factors , that you can observe from the air.
Are there people on one end of your LZ firing guns at targets on the other end? Land somewhere else. Are there crops? Farmers don’t like people stomping their alfalfa. Are there horses, or cattle in your LZ? Birds with a 30-foot wingspan usually spook livestock within several wingspans’ distance. Golf carts? Children playing? Gatherings of people, like on a beach? They may not know you intend to land. They may think you’re just going to “buzz� them. Ask Mike Knapp. Organized sports? Ask Groundhog. Irrigation equipment? Retrieval vehicles sometimes drive right into the field and wreck the expensive pipes on the ground. Are open fields surrounded by any kind of fence? If any of these factors are present, there’s a good chance your landing may be unwelcome.
Even when you can’t see any of those things, landowners sometimes object to landings on their property. And they are perfectly within their rights in objecting. Trespassing is against the law in most places. Some landowners threaten to call the police, threaten trespassers with firearms, and threaten to “confiscate� the glider. In any case where you are approached by a person claiming to be a landowner, no matter how belligerent they may be, you should remain cool and immediately introduce yourself and apologize for landing there. You might say,
“Hello, sir. My name is (first and last name, please – he might also be a “Frank� or a “Campbell�) I apologize for landing here and I hope I haven’t done any harm to your property. I didn’t mean to land on your property - - I was trying to get (over there on the highway right-of-way, to the ball fields yonder, to Bishop Airport, wherever else you might have meant to land), but the winds gave out and I couldn’t make it. I was getting real low and this looked like the only safe place I could find to land. I’m going to pack this stuff up and move off your property as soon as I can. I’m sorry for the inconvenience. My friends are coming to pick me up in a truck.�
Most landowners will be happy for you to clear off and never come back again, but some remain belligerent. If they threaten to call the police, just say. “I hope you don’t need to do that, because I don’t mean anybody any harm. If you think I have caused any damage, my national association, the USHPA, carries a million dollars in insurance that covers any property damage caused by a pilot like me. Here’s my USHGA pilot’s license, with the insurance information on the back. You can make a claim if you like.�
I he or she persists in calling the police, just say, “Well, while we wait for them, I’m going to pack up my equipment,� and go ahead and break down and pack up. If the landowner tells you not to touch anything, just keep packing up and say, “I’m trying to get me and my stuff off your land as soon as I can, to be ready to go when the police get here.� Police are often slow to respond to citizen complaints when there is no threat of violence, weapons, or deadly, highly illegal marijuana involved. They may not show up before the landowner calms down and lets you leave.
One of the unique challenges of cross country flying is picking an LZ from the air, evaluating the terrain, fences, wires and other potential obstacles, the wind direction and speed, the extent of wind shadows from structures or trees, the slope, and all the other factors that can make or break a landing. There’s one really important factor that is more difficult to evaluate from the air - - the attitude of the landowner towards landings on his property. Difficult, but not impossible to judge. Although some landowners are gracious and accommodating, don’t count on it. Take as a given that many people do not welcome trespassing on their property. Then consider other factors , that you can observe from the air.
Are there people on one end of your LZ firing guns at targets on the other end? Land somewhere else. Are there crops? Farmers don’t like people stomping their alfalfa. Are there horses, or cattle in your LZ? Birds with a 30-foot wingspan usually spook livestock within several wingspans’ distance. Golf carts? Children playing? Gatherings of people, like on a beach? They may not know you intend to land. They may think you’re just going to “buzz� them. Ask Mike Knapp. Organized sports? Ask Groundhog. Irrigation equipment? Retrieval vehicles sometimes drive right into the field and wreck the expensive pipes on the ground. Are open fields surrounded by any kind of fence? If any of these factors are present, there’s a good chance your landing may be unwelcome.
Even when you can’t see any of those things, landowners sometimes object to landings on their property. And they are perfectly within their rights in objecting. Trespassing is against the law in most places. Some landowners threaten to call the police, threaten trespassers with firearms, and threaten to “confiscate� the glider. In any case where you are approached by a person claiming to be a landowner, no matter how belligerent they may be, you should remain cool and immediately introduce yourself and apologize for landing there. You might say,
“Hello, sir. My name is (first and last name, please – he might also be a “Frank� or a “Campbell�) I apologize for landing here and I hope I haven’t done any harm to your property. I didn’t mean to land on your property - - I was trying to get (over there on the highway right-of-way, to the ball fields yonder, to Bishop Airport, wherever else you might have meant to land), but the winds gave out and I couldn’t make it. I was getting real low and this looked like the only safe place I could find to land. I’m going to pack this stuff up and move off your property as soon as I can. I’m sorry for the inconvenience. My friends are coming to pick me up in a truck.�
Most landowners will be happy for you to clear off and never come back again, but some remain belligerent. If they threaten to call the police, just say. “I hope you don’t need to do that, because I don’t mean anybody any harm. If you think I have caused any damage, my national association, the USHPA, carries a million dollars in insurance that covers any property damage caused by a pilot like me. Here’s my USHGA pilot’s license, with the insurance information on the back. You can make a claim if you like.�
I he or she persists in calling the police, just say, “Well, while we wait for them, I’m going to pack up my equipment,� and go ahead and break down and pack up. If the landowner tells you not to touch anything, just keep packing up and say, “I’m trying to get me and my stuff off your land as soon as I can, to be ready to go when the police get here.� Police are often slow to respond to citizen complaints when there is no threat of violence, weapons, or deadly, highly illegal marijuana involved. They may not show up before the landowner calms down and lets you leave.
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee
If a landowner says that he/she is going to confiscate your equipment, just say, “I’m sorry sir (or ma’am), I’m just trying to leave your property as soon as I can. I’m sorry for the inconvenience. My friends are coming to pick me up in a truck.�
Most landowners will be happy for you to clear off and never come back again, but some remain belligerent. If they threaten to call the police, just say. “I hope you don’t need to do that, because I don’t mean anybody any harm. If you think I have caused any damage, my national association, the USHPA, carries a million dollars in insurance that covers any property damage caused by a pilot like me. Here’s my USHGA pilot’s license, with the insurance information on the back. You can make a claim if you like.�
I he or she persists in calling the police, just say, “Well, while we wait for them, I’m going to pack up my equipment,� and go ahead and break down and pack up. If the landowner tells you not to touch anything, just keep packing up and say, “I’m trying to get me and my stuff off your land as soon as I can, to be ready to go when the police get here.� Police are often slow to respond to citizen complaints when there is no threat of violence, weapons, or deadly, highly illegal marijuana involved. They may not show up before the landowner calms down and lets you leave.
If a landowner says that he/she is going to confiscate your equipment, just say, “I’m sorry sir (or ma’am), I’m just trying to leave your property as soon as I can, and I’m not going to leave anything that belongs to me here - - not my clothes, not my wallet , not my glider and not my harness.� Keep packing up. Leave unless the landowner prevents you. If he tries, show him your driver’s license and tell him he can take down all the information. Do not give him the license – he might not hand it back. Unless the person makes a citizen’s arrest and immediately calls the police, you may leave. A landowner has no right to take your cell phone, wallet, glider or any other personal property simply because it is on his property. Be polite, but firm.
If the police arrive, tell them, “As I told Mr. ___________ here, I couldn’t find any other safe place to land,� and repeat what you have said to the landowner, complete with apologies, excuses, and promises to clear out as soon as you can, and show the police your USHPA card and insurance information. Most cops have more important stuff to do. If the police threaten to confiscate your glider, repeat that “I’m just trying to leave as soon as I can, and I’m not going to leave anything that belongs to me here - - not my clothes, not my wallet, not my cell phone , not my glider and not my harness.� A cop may “confiscate� your equipment if he arrests you, just as your car can be impounded (taken away for safekeeping) if you’re arrested for a traffic violation. Things in your possession may be kept as evidence of a crime, but eventually they must be returned to you, unless they are contraband, like dope, unregistered guns, or stolen property. They can’t simply confiscate your equipment forever without due process, which means: 1) there has to be a law providing for “forfeiture� of certain property (e.g. vehicles used for smuggling, money proceeds of racketeering), 2) a hearing and opportunity to contest forfeiture, and 3) a court order.
But this legal stuff is just for your information, and it may or may not be a correct statement of the law, depending on the place where you are. Remember that landowners are concerned that if someone crashes on their land, and is injured, they might somehow be found liable. That’s not really a valid concern, because the laws or California and some other states protect landowners from liability to people whom they permit to participate in recreational activities on their land. Don’t play lawyer with the landowner or the cops. That’s the surest way to piss them off.
Most landowners will be happy for you to clear off and never come back again, but some remain belligerent. If they threaten to call the police, just say. “I hope you don’t need to do that, because I don’t mean anybody any harm. If you think I have caused any damage, my national association, the USHPA, carries a million dollars in insurance that covers any property damage caused by a pilot like me. Here’s my USHGA pilot’s license, with the insurance information on the back. You can make a claim if you like.�
I he or she persists in calling the police, just say, “Well, while we wait for them, I’m going to pack up my equipment,� and go ahead and break down and pack up. If the landowner tells you not to touch anything, just keep packing up and say, “I’m trying to get me and my stuff off your land as soon as I can, to be ready to go when the police get here.� Police are often slow to respond to citizen complaints when there is no threat of violence, weapons, or deadly, highly illegal marijuana involved. They may not show up before the landowner calms down and lets you leave.
If a landowner says that he/she is going to confiscate your equipment, just say, “I’m sorry sir (or ma’am), I’m just trying to leave your property as soon as I can, and I’m not going to leave anything that belongs to me here - - not my clothes, not my wallet , not my glider and not my harness.� Keep packing up. Leave unless the landowner prevents you. If he tries, show him your driver’s license and tell him he can take down all the information. Do not give him the license – he might not hand it back. Unless the person makes a citizen’s arrest and immediately calls the police, you may leave. A landowner has no right to take your cell phone, wallet, glider or any other personal property simply because it is on his property. Be polite, but firm.
If the police arrive, tell them, “As I told Mr. ___________ here, I couldn’t find any other safe place to land,� and repeat what you have said to the landowner, complete with apologies, excuses, and promises to clear out as soon as you can, and show the police your USHPA card and insurance information. Most cops have more important stuff to do. If the police threaten to confiscate your glider, repeat that “I’m just trying to leave as soon as I can, and I’m not going to leave anything that belongs to me here - - not my clothes, not my wallet, not my cell phone , not my glider and not my harness.� A cop may “confiscate� your equipment if he arrests you, just as your car can be impounded (taken away for safekeeping) if you’re arrested for a traffic violation. Things in your possession may be kept as evidence of a crime, but eventually they must be returned to you, unless they are contraband, like dope, unregistered guns, or stolen property. They can’t simply confiscate your equipment forever without due process, which means: 1) there has to be a law providing for “forfeiture� of certain property (e.g. vehicles used for smuggling, money proceeds of racketeering), 2) a hearing and opportunity to contest forfeiture, and 3) a court order.
But this legal stuff is just for your information, and it may or may not be a correct statement of the law, depending on the place where you are. Remember that landowners are concerned that if someone crashes on their land, and is injured, they might somehow be found liable. That’s not really a valid concern, because the laws or California and some other states protect landowners from liability to people whom they permit to participate in recreational activities on their land. Don’t play lawyer with the landowner or the cops. That’s the surest way to piss them off.
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee