PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: Dockweiler insurance extended Reply with quote #1
We've been able to negotiate an extension on the commercial school insurance for Joe Greblo's operation at Dockweiler Beach. That's good news; it means he won't be closing in September after all. I can't say any more at this time, but we hope to have a long term resolution in place before the extension ends.
Mark G. Forbes
USHPA insurance committee chairman
Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.ph ... z3jVU5qCd6
Dockweiler insurance
Great news and thanks for whatever negotiation help that was offered by USHPA.
I had my first flight there in 1973 when I was 10 and Joe Greblo and Rich Grigsby offered my brother and me a free try. I knew it was for me the moment my feet left the ground, and that flight is still very fresh in my memory after all these years.
A Big Thank you to Joe and all those that work hard to keep flying sites open and help us find our wings! I hope this works out long term and that there will be many generations that get to start there training there.
Mario
I had my first flight there in 1973 when I was 10 and Joe Greblo and Rich Grigsby offered my brother and me a free try. I knew it was for me the moment my feet left the ground, and that flight is still very fresh in my memory after all these years.
A Big Thank you to Joe and all those that work hard to keep flying sites open and help us find our wings! I hope this works out long term and that there will be many generations that get to start there training there.
Mario
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Bob Kuczewski
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It's certainly great news that Dockweiler gets another 6 months, but let's not forget that this crisis was created by USHPA / Mark Forbes mismanagement of the insursnce program that we've been paying for all these years.
Joe Greblo has run one of the most safety conscious schools in the world. He didn't do anything to deserve this crisis.
Mark Forbes and Rich Hass should resign for creating this situation in the the first place. Politicians are skilled at taking credit for fixing the problems they created. They thrive on the short attention span of the public.
Mark Forbes, Rich Hass, and Brad Hall KNOW that I've been calling for oversight at Torrey for almost a decade. They also KNOW that the unsupervised gross negligence of the Torrey concessionaire figured prominently in this insurance fiasco. A 6 month extension at Dockweiler does not fix decades of mismanagement. Don't get fooled again.
Joe Greblo has run one of the most safety conscious schools in the world. He didn't do anything to deserve this crisis.
Mark Forbes and Rich Hass should resign for creating this situation in the the first place. Politicians are skilled at taking credit for fixing the problems they created. They thrive on the short attention span of the public.
Mark Forbes, Rich Hass, and Brad Hall KNOW that I've been calling for oversight at Torrey for almost a decade. They also KNOW that the unsupervised gross negligence of the Torrey concessionaire figured prominently in this insurance fiasco. A 6 month extension at Dockweiler does not fix decades of mismanagement. Don't get fooled again.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
Since so much information is not on the table (much is behind the scenes), it is difficult
to know just what is going on. Speculation provides some things to consider. Have deals
been cut that keep hang gliding from gaining equitable treatment on public lands
compared to other citizen recreation activity. Have deals been cuts just to deepen an org
in the depressive dance? Will the orgs work toward the no-3PL future for public lands
for hang gliding or not?
I'm seeking clarity. As yet, I cannot thank Mark for the plays; the total play is not simple.
Have we just moved back the clock away from when equitable treatment for hang gliding at
Dockweiler will occur? Perhaps the whole world of hang gliding could unite in a press to achieve
open non-3PL hang gliding at Dockweiler for the recreational open sector while still an additional
business care would occur where that business would have its 3PL coverage. Have we just
muffed a chance to introduce free and open HG to be run parallel to a commercial operation
at Dockweiler? In 1962 Jim Hobson operated his "Rogallo Wing Hang Glider" (EAA) at Dockweiler
in free and open recreational manner way before Australia touched their modern opening to HG;
the same in 1966 for a team of friends around Richard Miller and his two hang gliders.
How did we lose the open HG
at Dockweiler? Some inequity ate its way into the picture; the heroic positive steps of Joe Greblo
to open designated HG to his commercial training operation was great. What is not great is that
free-and-open recreational HG was stopped by the County; the dynamics of that stopping may
not be valid today (they may not have been valid when the County stopped HG at Dockweiler
decades ago). Coming up to the present and near future: the world community of HG might
target all its resources to get one site in the world of note to become a non-3PL recreation HG
site on public lands; let such become an opening of a great future that will see other public land
sites opened for equitable treatment.
to know just what is going on. Speculation provides some things to consider. Have deals
been cut that keep hang gliding from gaining equitable treatment on public lands
compared to other citizen recreation activity. Have deals been cuts just to deepen an org
in the depressive dance? Will the orgs work toward the no-3PL future for public lands
for hang gliding or not?
I'm seeking clarity. As yet, I cannot thank Mark for the plays; the total play is not simple.
Have we just moved back the clock away from when equitable treatment for hang gliding at
Dockweiler will occur? Perhaps the whole world of hang gliding could unite in a press to achieve
open non-3PL hang gliding at Dockweiler for the recreational open sector while still an additional
business care would occur where that business would have its 3PL coverage. Have we just
muffed a chance to introduce free and open HG to be run parallel to a commercial operation
at Dockweiler? In 1962 Jim Hobson operated his "Rogallo Wing Hang Glider" (EAA) at Dockweiler
in free and open recreational manner way before Australia touched their modern opening to HG;
the same in 1966 for a team of friends around Richard Miller and his two hang gliders.
How did we lose the open HG
at Dockweiler? Some inequity ate its way into the picture; the heroic positive steps of Joe Greblo
to open designated HG to his commercial training operation was great. What is not great is that
free-and-open recreational HG was stopped by the County; the dynamics of that stopping may
not be valid today (they may not have been valid when the County stopped HG at Dockweiler
decades ago). Coming up to the present and near future: the world community of HG might
target all its resources to get one site in the world of note to become a non-3PL recreation HG
site on public lands; let such become an opening of a great future that will see other public land
sites opened for equitable treatment.
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
In his Oz Forum post, Joe included this:
Unfortunately, I believe USHPA has a different agenda. I believe they want us chained to their insurance monopoly because that gives them power and control.
The sport of SCUBA diving was similarly bound to a single certification organization in its early days. But that monopoly was broken and today there are choices among certification organizations. Dive shops and sites honor the ratings of all major organizations and the sport of SCUBA diving has thrived. We could do the same and possibly outgrow the insurance monopoly that has controlled hang gliding all these years.
Joe your comments are right on target. Please feel free to post my endorsement to the Oz Forum since I cannot do so myself.
I think that is a noble goal, and Joe Greblo's excellent safety record at Dockweiler should be moving the sport in that direction in Los Angeles.Joe Faust wrote:What will it take to have hang gliding in the USA on public lands be treated as walking, hiking, surfing, dancing, bicycling, ball tossing, running, holding hands, umbrella carrying, kiting, balloon hopping, etc. ?
Unfortunately, I believe USHPA has a different agenda. I believe they want us chained to their insurance monopoly because that gives them power and control.
The sport of SCUBA diving was similarly bound to a single certification organization in its early days. But that monopoly was broken and today there are choices among certification organizations. Dive shops and sites honor the ratings of all major organizations and the sport of SCUBA diving has thrived. We could do the same and possibly outgrow the insurance monopoly that has controlled hang gliding all these years.
Joe your comments are right on target. Please feel free to post my endorsement to the Oz Forum since I cannot do so myself.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
Dockweiler insurance
Who I believe;
"Trying to find someone to blame is not helpful. The county needs to protect itself from liability and their requirements are not unreasonable. It's not their fault and it's not the fault of the rich haas or mark forbes or USHPA.
It's no more than an unfortunate fact of life.
People are working on ways to solve this problem and I'm at least hopeful at this point.
I should know more in a week or so. Please don't contact the city or county at this point
Thanks to all my friends.
Joe"
_________________
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
"Trying to find someone to blame is not helpful. The county needs to protect itself from liability and their requirements are not unreasonable. It's not their fault and it's not the fault of the rich haas or mark forbes or USHPA.
It's no more than an unfortunate fact of life.
People are working on ways to solve this problem and I'm at least hopeful at this point.
I should know more in a week or so. Please don't contact the city or county at this point
Thanks to all my friends.
Joe"
_________________
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
dockweiller
Bob is bitter. Comparing scuba to hang gliding for the masses is like comparing a water park to sky diving
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Brad Hall,
Joe Greblo is forced - by current necessity - to be a diplomat. I am not. There's no doubt that the recent and expensive setllement was a major contributor to decisions made by insurance carriers. That settlement was a direct result of your own protection of your buddies at Torrey Pines.
vannoppen,
As far as SCUBA goes, the parallel is a perfect fit. But while SCUBA diving has grown under competition, hang gliding is dying under USHPA. Just look at the ratings each month and you'll see the facts.
Joe Greblo is forced - by current necessity - to be a diplomat. I am not. There's no doubt that the recent and expensive setllement was a major contributor to decisions made by insurance carriers. That settlement was a direct result of your own protection of your buddies at Torrey Pines.
vannoppen,
As far as SCUBA goes, the parallel is a perfect fit. But while SCUBA diving has grown under competition, hang gliding is dying under USHPA. Just look at the ratings each month and you'll see the facts.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
P.S.
Brad Hall has made 3 posts to this forum since 2012 - two of them in this topic.
Brad Hall has made 3 posts to this forum since 2012 - two of them in this topic.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
-
Bob Kuczewski
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- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
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My point is that Brad Hall is posting for Mark Forbes because Mark Forbes wouldn't post his own quote to the Sylmar forum. Mark Forbes is using Brad Hall as his mouthpiece to avoid having to answer any questions about what caused the loss of insurance at Dockweiler.
Mark Forbes / USHPA has mismanaged the insurance program (paid for by the members) by not providing oversight at key sites like Torrey. A year before the Hamby incident, I personally reported a similar problem at Torrey and I called for oversight through USHPA's seat on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (everyone who's been around long enough knows that story by now). USHPA did nothing.
If we don't connect the dots between the causes and effects, history will repeat itself.
Mark Forbes / USHPA has mismanaged the insurance program (paid for by the members) by not providing oversight at key sites like Torrey. A year before the Hamby incident, I personally reported a similar problem at Torrey and I called for oversight through USHPA's seat on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (everyone who's been around long enough knows that story by now). USHPA did nothing.
If we don't connect the dots between the causes and effects, history will repeat itself.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
I feel I must say it's unfair and unhelpful for anyone to accuse the USHPA or any of it's directors for playing any role in the loss of my commercial insurance policy at Dockweiler Beach. Quite the contrary, the USHPA quickly stepped in and put resources to work to try to assist me in remedying this problem.
It would be easy to play the "blame game" through speculation, hindsight, and "I told you so's" but quite frankly the real cause was the culmination of unrelated insurance claims, from various entities and not from any one source. The simple fact is that claims across the United States last year were too high and anything we can do to reduce them in the future will be helpful as it affects all of us, even those of us that have never had a claim.
Over the past few years the USHPA has made significant efforts towards increasing safety and reducing risks in hang gliding, and the suggestion that they should have done more is simply a matter of opinion to which we are all entitled. In hindsight it can be tempting to argue that someone should have done more.
I would like to thank Martin Palmaz, Mark Forbes, Rich Haas, and any other USHPA Directors or representatives for their efforts to reduce hang gliding risks and for springing to action when learning of my problem. I would also like to thank the countless people that called or wrote to volunteer information or services of assistance.
We now have some breathing room to look for long term insurance coverage and/or other methods to keep this valuable training hill open for the future hang gliding community.
It would be easy to play the "blame game" through speculation, hindsight, and "I told you so's" but quite frankly the real cause was the culmination of unrelated insurance claims, from various entities and not from any one source. The simple fact is that claims across the United States last year were too high and anything we can do to reduce them in the future will be helpful as it affects all of us, even those of us that have never had a claim.
Over the past few years the USHPA has made significant efforts towards increasing safety and reducing risks in hang gliding, and the suggestion that they should have done more is simply a matter of opinion to which we are all entitled. In hindsight it can be tempting to argue that someone should have done more.
I would like to thank Martin Palmaz, Mark Forbes, Rich Haas, and any other USHPA Directors or representatives for their efforts to reduce hang gliding risks and for springing to action when learning of my problem. I would also like to thank the countless people that called or wrote to volunteer information or services of assistance.
We now have some breathing room to look for long term insurance coverage and/or other methods to keep this valuable training hill open for the future hang gliding community.
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
Michael Robertson
Dockweiler
I will post one last time on this thread. First, I haven't seen or spoke with Mark in several years. I was never his spokesman, nor he mine. I have never known Mark to be afraid to speak for himself. He does however have enough intelligence to know what is good for the sport and what isn't. Some people without the mental acumen to know better will plow onward blindly blaming all around them for what they perceive as wrong. Many things, insurance being one of them, are not necessarily fodder for internet trolls.
Accusing others of actions you have have no substantial proof of only makes the accuser look even more foolish. State it anyway you like. Without proof, it is opinion and conjecture.
I believe the settlement was in part the fault of the person who testified against the USHPA in court. Part of the reason he is no longer a member.
This is the second time I am aware of that the associations legal council was engaged do to a direct action by said former member. Crying about the cost to the membership now is pure hypocrisy.
The Soaring Council has not had any oversight authority since the City of San Diego went to a concessionaire system. Prior to that, many years ago, it was an advisory panel to the Parks & Rec. Dept. it has rejected the idea of the Torrey Hawks being a member for one reason. The mouthpiece of the club is seen as a destructive element that cannot and will not work with anyone that disagrees with him. Sound familiar?
Yes Joe is a diplomat. He is also a gentleman. He is also an honest man of impeccable credentials who is admired as someone who is truthful and fair.
There is a strong lesson to be learned there.
End of post (#4)
Accusing others of actions you have have no substantial proof of only makes the accuser look even more foolish. State it anyway you like. Without proof, it is opinion and conjecture.
I believe the settlement was in part the fault of the person who testified against the USHPA in court. Part of the reason he is no longer a member.
This is the second time I am aware of that the associations legal council was engaged do to a direct action by said former member. Crying about the cost to the membership now is pure hypocrisy.
The Soaring Council has not had any oversight authority since the City of San Diego went to a concessionaire system. Prior to that, many years ago, it was an advisory panel to the Parks & Rec. Dept. it has rejected the idea of the Torrey Hawks being a member for one reason. The mouthpiece of the club is seen as a destructive element that cannot and will not work with anyone that disagrees with him. Sound familiar?
Yes Joe is a diplomat. He is also a gentleman. He is also an honest man of impeccable credentials who is admired as someone who is truthful and fair.
There is a strong lesson to be learned there.
End of post (#4)
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Bob Kuczewski
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- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
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Conjecture Brad?
Tell us the amount of the insurance settlement for the gross negligence of the Torrey concessionaire and we'll see if it's conjecture or not.
Joe Greblo is having to go begging to save his school at Dockweiler. Do you really expect him to be critical of the people he has to go begging to? Joe is like a hostage with a gun to his head. Of course he's not going to be critical of the people with their finger on the trigger.
Brad Hall, you were a Region 3 Director when Shannon was injured. I had reported training problems at that site at least a year earlier. What did YOU do to fix those problems? Nothing.
The 'buck' has to stop somewhere, and it currently rests with Mark Forbes, Rich Hass, and yourself. In a respectable organization you'd all have resigned by now. Instead you're all trying to blame someone else.
I'll say it again, everyone who's been paying attention for the past 8 years knows that I've been calling for oversight at Torrey that whole time. Someone was bound to get hurt and they did. You can't walk away from that Brad.
Tell us the amount of the insurance settlement for the gross negligence of the Torrey concessionaire and we'll see if it's conjecture or not.
Joe Greblo is having to go begging to save his school at Dockweiler. Do you really expect him to be critical of the people he has to go begging to? Joe is like a hostage with a gun to his head. Of course he's not going to be critical of the people with their finger on the trigger.
Brad Hall, you were a Region 3 Director when Shannon was injured. I had reported training problems at that site at least a year earlier. What did YOU do to fix those problems? Nothing.
The 'buck' has to stop somewhere, and it currently rests with Mark Forbes, Rich Hass, and yourself. In a respectable organization you'd all have resigned by now. Instead you're all trying to blame someone else.
I'll say it again, everyone who's been paying attention for the past 8 years knows that I've been calling for oversight at Torrey that whole time. Someone was bound to get hurt and they did. You can't walk away from that Brad.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
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Actually, Brad can walk away and probably should. His legacy of backing the Torrey concessionaire will be felt for many more years to come.Bob Kuczewski wrote:I'll say it again, everyone who's been paying attention for the past 8 years knows that I've been calling for oversight at Torrey that whole time. Someone was bound to get hurt and they did. You can't walk away from that Brad.
I have to say that I have never understood why Brad sided with David Jebb. From what I've heard, Brad fought previous concessionaires for the same kinds of fairness that I've been requesting. In fact, the first time I ever heard Brad Hall's name was from Joe Greblo. Joe had remembered Brad fighting for hang gliding at Torrey and Joe suggested that I give Brad a call. I did, but Brad was so entrenched in the Jebb camp that he couldn't see that Jebb had become just like the previous operators that Brad had opposed. Brad Hall could have used his position in USHPA and on the Soaring Council to have changed many things at Torrey. The oversight he could have brought through his position on that Council might have averted a number of injuries and possibly saved a life. It would have saved USHPA all of the headache that's come from that site over the years, and I'd have never even needed to run for Regional Director in the first place if Brad had done his job as Regional Director and as USHPA's representative to the Soaring Council.
On the other hand, if Brad had done his job, we probably wouldn't have the Torrey Hawks, the US Hawks, or many of the other clubs that have grown from that effort. History is somewhat funny that way.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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