"ICE" Stands for "In Case of Emergency"
Program the name and number of your emergency contact in your cell phone under the name "ICE" (All caps)
Emergency responders are trained to look in accident victims' phones to find the person to call in case you are injured, or worse.
They search for a listing for "ICE"
Yesterday, Joe Petrosian was injured and taken to the Holy Cross hospital. We couldn't find the name or number of a relative or friend to notify. If he had had an "ICE" in his phone, we could have made the call.
As far as we knew then, he has a dislocated shoulder and broken humerus, as well as a concussion.
I just called him (2:39 p.m. Monday) and spoke to him. He sounds good - - not at all disoriented from the concussion. His arm is not broken, but his shoulder socket was broken, and he just got out of surgery, where they screwed it back together with a metal plate. He might be released tomorrow.
The cause of the crash was a broken right-wing side wire. He came in over the LZ low and fast, and when he pulled up, we all heard "twang!" Then we saw he had no right wire. He was in a left turn that he couldn't correct without a right side wire. He circled once over the wash and the upper LZ and pounded in downwind in the hardest, rockiest part of the wash, just about opposite the upper LZ wind streamer.
The side wire broke where it joined the nicopress next to the thimble at the end of the control bar. The nicopress did not fail. They were lightweight racing wires.
We saved his harness from destruction by EMT scissors.
New wires for the Spring season, anyone?
ICE - Joe Petrosian's crash
Moderator: Chip
ICE - Joe Petrosian's crash
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee
This is the failed side wire. I don't know too much about it, but it looks like a racing wire. Besides that, the wire looks like it is in great shape, the cut was clean nearly like a machine did it. I can't see an inspection catching this. I guess you must rely on the manufacturers "change by date"
How often does WW recommend I change my SP2 side wires?
Good to hear that Joe is doing well.
How often does WW recommend I change my SP2 side wires?
Good to hear that Joe is doing well.
If that was a clean break with no advanced appearance of impending failure, then I question the wisdom of racing wires unless you're racing. I want a good margin of safety with heavier wires if that kind of failure is a possibility.
I suppose Joe would have been better off if this happened at altitude and could throw a chute, but this was still a fortunate outcome considering it happened that low.
Is it possible at all to control a glider without a side wire?
I suppose Joe would have been better off if this happened at altitude and could throw a chute, but this was still a fortunate outcome considering it happened that low.
Is it possible at all to control a glider without a side wire?
Flyyyyy
Mike M. changed his wires from comp to standards. I was talking to Big Mike after a day of flying a few days ago and we were trying to figure the life of comp wires. I think it's about six months.
I'm sure if we had Rob on standard wires and Ron on comp wires and they both flew to Lukens and back...I'm guessing they would be in the same gaggle.
I'm sure if we had Rob on standard wires and Ron on comp wires and they both flew to Lukens and back...I'm guessing they would be in the same gaggle.
Last edited by Busto on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
In theory, yes--sort of. If a sidewire breaks on a topless and the VG is released to zero and the bar is pulled in the lift will be generated very close to the keel and the cross bars should be stiff enough to prevent asymmetrical dihedral from forming which will at least allow the glider to fly in a relatively straight line. Unfortunately, the brackets at the top of the downtubes is hinged and any sideways pulling on the broken side may be largely negated by the control bar swinging to the opposite side. I think the best outcome would be to fly down to ground effect and very slowly level out to skim and then pray. Any G-forces would tend to induce asymmetrical dihedral and send the glider into a spiral. Pushing out will seal your fate.Glenn wrote:....Is it possible at all to control a glider without a side wire?
I thought the 2mm racing wires have been abandoned by everyone?
http://www.willswing.com/blogs/PilotBlo ... etter.aspx
Moyes suggests replacing them every 50 hours regardless of the type of flying.
http://www.moyes.com.au/technical-advis ... isory.html
Moyes put out a technical advisory last July after the Crestline fatality. The recomendations can be found here:
http://www.moyes.com.au/technical-advisory.html
Kraig recomended using the thicker wires and putting on the racing wires only for comps and then switching back.
http://www.moyes.com.au/technical-advisory.html
Kraig recomended using the thicker wires and putting on the racing wires only for comps and then switching back.
eat right, exercise, die anyway!
2mm side wires are a bad idea period. They are extremely easy to kink, which can cause them to rapidly fatigue and then fracture with no warning. At 50mph in a 30-mile final glide they will give you a few hundred foot advantage over 3/32" wires. That's it. Keeping your Mylar smooth and you leading edge tension correct on your sail will have 10 to 50X the advantage over the infinitesimally small drag savings. And even that is questionable as 2mm wires may actually increase drag through harmonic resonance at higher speeds where side wires begin to go slack and vibrate in the breeze.Busto wrote:Sounds like Kraig's idea seems reasonably straight forward.
Is Joe's glider repairable?
Tucking your elbows in by just 1/4" on each side will give a larger drag reduction.
Next Question
Should he have thrown his chute?
I think, yes.
With the right wire broken, there was nothing he could do to come out of the left turn. As Jonathan observed, any control movement would just steepen the bank to the left. Letting go of the control bar might allow the glider to fly at trim long enough to get the chute out.
When the glider has forward movement, say 15 mph at trim, the chute (1) won't be tangling in a spinning, broken glider and (2) has a good chance of opening quickly and completely.
When I threw my chute that time my harness broke, my glider was intact and flying fast, since I was hanging on the bar by my armpits. I delayed throwing it until I was pretty low (200-300' AGL) because I wanted to control where I landed - - in some tall bushes. It worked for me. It opened and I was under canopy only about 10-20 seconds.
I think, yes.
With the right wire broken, there was nothing he could do to come out of the left turn. As Jonathan observed, any control movement would just steepen the bank to the left. Letting go of the control bar might allow the glider to fly at trim long enough to get the chute out.
When the glider has forward movement, say 15 mph at trim, the chute (1) won't be tangling in a spinning, broken glider and (2) has a good chance of opening quickly and completely.
When I threw my chute that time my harness broke, my glider was intact and flying fast, since I was hanging on the bar by my armpits. I delayed throwing it until I was pretty low (200-300' AGL) because I wanted to control where I landed - - in some tall bushes. It worked for me. It opened and I was under canopy only about 10-20 seconds.
Soar With Prudent Passion
Larry Chamblee
Larry Chamblee
On the subject of what could have been done differently.
Remember, what it takes for a parachute to deploy is a large enough volume of air to fill it. As Betty Pfeiffer of High Energy Sports said, "The parachute doesn't care which direction this air comes from". A pilot that is flying fast in near level flight will find the parachute opens quite quickly, and with minimal altitude loss. On the other hand, a glider that has folded up and is falling quickly will lose much more altitude before full inflation occurs.
Accidental parachute deployments just after mountain launches have resulted in pilots in the bushes less than 100 feet below the launch site.
When I observed Joe's incident, I estimated that he was at about 250 - 300 ft. above the landing area immediately after the side wire failed. Others have estimated less. Joe remembers looking at his altimeter and reading 1700 ft. MSL. If his altimeter was accurate, then he was likely 300 ft. or higher. I am reasonably confident that he was at least 200 ft. above the lz before he went into the left turn that resulted in his crash.
He also stated that he considered throwing his reserve but felt he was too low for a safe and successful deployment.
Hang glider reserve parachute manufacturers have long suggested that parachute deployments can be successful at altitudes down to very low altitudes if the gliders vertical descent is very low and at nominal flight speeds (as in Joe's case).
Remember, what it takes for a parachute to deploy is a large enough volume of air to fill it. As Betty Pfeiffer of High Energy Sports said, "The parachute doesn't care which direction this air comes from". A pilot that is flying fast in near level flight will find the parachute opens quite quickly, and with minimal altitude loss. On the other hand, a glider that has folded up and is falling quickly will lose much more altitude before full inflation occurs.
Accidental parachute deployments just after mountain launches have resulted in pilots in the bushes less than 100 feet below the launch site.
When I observed Joe's incident, I estimated that he was at about 250 - 300 ft. above the landing area immediately after the side wire failed. Others have estimated less. Joe remembers looking at his altimeter and reading 1700 ft. MSL. If his altimeter was accurate, then he was likely 300 ft. or higher. I am reasonably confident that he was at least 200 ft. above the lz before he went into the left turn that resulted in his crash.
He also stated that he considered throwing his reserve but felt he was too low for a safe and successful deployment.
Hang glider reserve parachute manufacturers have long suggested that parachute deployments can be successful at altitudes down to very low altitudes if the gliders vertical descent is very low and at nominal flight speeds (as in Joe's case).
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
Michael Robertson
Ban Racing Wires
Just curious if anyone has thought about the Club banning race wires?
Code: Select all
Just curious if anyone has thought about the Club banning race wires?As to my comment on banning race wires at comps, I believe that comp organizers have a responsibility to set some certain rules because there are those who will push the limits until failure occurs. I wouldn't even have thought about it but was told that sprog height was being set at minimum acceptable levels at some comps.
Re: Ban Racing Wires
Don - Joe's accident would have been avoided if he merely performed routine maintenance according to the manufacturer's recommendation of 6 months or 50 hours. The reason it broke where it did is because that is where the side wire gets abused every time the glider is set up or broken down and not because the wire is flimsy.Don wrote:Just curious if anyone has thought about the Club banning race wires?
That repeated bending in a tight radius at the same place every time we fly causes metal fatigue. The molecules crystallize and embrittle. That is why it looked like it was cut my a pair of wire cutters. It actually shattered at a molecular level. Doggone Bill has made several complaints/suggestions Moyes regarding this very issue and how they may minimize metal strain and fatigue on the wires.
To a certain extent it's nearly impossible to prevent this from happening each time we assemble/disassemble our gear. That's why certain parts must be replaced periodically.
Not long ago I posted to the forum a Wills Wing advisory regarding a run of defective hang loops on the Sport 2. Since there are several of these gliders in the club I thought this was worthy of note by the club for inspection of gliders and hang straps.
If the club were to to anything in regard to this incident aside from the ICE suggestion, I would hope it would be more posts regarding routine maintenance or even a club get-together/workshop on performing a sail removal and routine replacement of high-wear parts.
I recall a few years ago when Dennis pulled the sail off of his Aeros Discus we discovered that the LEs were full of dents and dings and were also bent. Another time Ronaldo poked his head inside his sail and noticed a transverse crack running the length of the inside of his inboard, carbon LE. I took a good look at the webbing that attaches my T2C sail to my LE tip and spotted the hex head of the tip wand adjuster had eaten part-way through the webbing.
When's the last time you did a full sail-off inspection of any of your gliders or harness?
I was showing the inner details of a new harness to a friend of mine a while back and we discovered the main bridle had been cut half-way through by a defective part.
So, another area of club activity could or should be harness inspection. We have had the reserve deployment and repack clinic but this would be primarily for the harnesses.
For that matter, when is the last time you or anyone else in the club replaced his hang loop and/or harness bridle? These parts do fail eventually due to UV and abrasion.
So there are a lot of things we can do that many or even most of us are probably not doing. ICE should be more for the heart attacks and strokes that may get us as we age and while we're just lounging back in the LZ
I'll add my experience and ignorance on this incident.
First I'm glad Joe is reletivly unscathed from this incident.
I've watched Joe make these low approaches dozens of times without
incident so I think it was his expereince that allowed to set down
a damaged advanced glider with minimal injury.
It is beyond my understanding that a hang glider missing a flying
wire at 300' agl would not be on the ground in 4 seconds or less
and completely out of control. Can anyone explain this?
Where they described where he landed has had a few boulders removed
and thanks go out to those work parties that made that area safer.
Years ago I saw gliders blow both downtubes with zero injury on the
slope coated with those pesky flamable woodchips.
My only experience with a damaged flying wire was about 2 years ago
on setting up my falcon on Kagel and during my preflight when my
thumb went over where the flying wire connects with the control
frame I felt a sting and looked at my thumb and saw a drop of blood
forming. This alerted me to several broken strands where the
exposed wires loop around. After 10 minutes I decided to breakdown
and not fly because of the various many uncertanties of having a
safe flight that day on those conditions with non DHV rated flying
wires. Windsports was quick to order the wire set and in a few days
I performed the replacement myself with minimal assistance on the
windsports front yard. The only hurdle was a bolt being a bit
stuck.
My only recollection of possible damage was a week earlier when
setting up I dropped the control frame to the side from being
upside down and it hit a rock with a loud hammer/anvil sound.
The racing wires are DHV rated and in prime condition can pull
extreem G forces. New wires are very inexpensive. No glider should
be looped without new ones installed.
First I'm glad Joe is reletivly unscathed from this incident.
I've watched Joe make these low approaches dozens of times without
incident so I think it was his expereince that allowed to set down
a damaged advanced glider with minimal injury.
It is beyond my understanding that a hang glider missing a flying
wire at 300' agl would not be on the ground in 4 seconds or less
and completely out of control. Can anyone explain this?
Where they described where he landed has had a few boulders removed
and thanks go out to those work parties that made that area safer.
Years ago I saw gliders blow both downtubes with zero injury on the
slope coated with those pesky flamable woodchips.
My only experience with a damaged flying wire was about 2 years ago
on setting up my falcon on Kagel and during my preflight when my
thumb went over where the flying wire connects with the control
frame I felt a sting and looked at my thumb and saw a drop of blood
forming. This alerted me to several broken strands where the
exposed wires loop around. After 10 minutes I decided to breakdown
and not fly because of the various many uncertanties of having a
safe flight that day on those conditions with non DHV rated flying
wires. Windsports was quick to order the wire set and in a few days
I performed the replacement myself with minimal assistance on the
windsports front yard. The only hurdle was a bolt being a bit
stuck.
My only recollection of possible damage was a week earlier when
setting up I dropped the control frame to the side from being
upside down and it hit a rock with a loud hammer/anvil sound.
The racing wires are DHV rated and in prime condition can pull
extreem G forces. New wires are very inexpensive. No glider should
be looped without new ones installed.
About a year and a half ago Kathy (my wife) spent a great deal of time putting together emergency contact information for nearly all the pilots in the club. Joe was included.
Unfortunately, it appears that it was either misplaced or the location was forgotten. Previously it was in a folder in the phone box. That information's location should be well known and published. It is disappointing that the one time it could have been used, a fellow pilot and friend did not benefit from the work put into collecting that information.
Let's re-publish the emergency contact information and put it into a well marked, well designated location. It needs to be institutionalized within the club because these accidents are fortunately rare. Absent a formal organizational location, it will be forgotten again.
Mike
Unfortunately, it appears that it was either misplaced or the location was forgotten. Previously it was in a folder in the phone box. That information's location should be well known and published. It is disappointing that the one time it could have been used, a fellow pilot and friend did not benefit from the work put into collecting that information.
Let's re-publish the emergency contact information and put it into a well marked, well designated location. It needs to be institutionalized within the club because these accidents are fortunately rare. Absent a formal organizational location, it will be forgotten again.
Mike