question.....

[barton]

edited 6.2018

[Don]

Apparently a H4 at Torrey Pines - what a F....ing Joke!

Yet another reason the people running that place should be booted out!

[JD]

At least in the SHGA we keep an eye on one another and don't go by nominal credentials as a measure of ability, skill, knowledge and safety margin, etc. At least I hope we don't.

[JD]

It also gets you this groovy vanity plate..............

[jcflies]

OMG, dude! all this time i thought you were a male nurse! congrats. now that you're a hang IV, we all expect you to be shreddin on the way to west towers and flying the lines to big t! that's what H4s DO!
seriously, though, be careful! the rating doesn't signify much. it's what you KNOW you can SAFELY DO! otherwise you'll spend a long time on the sidelines watching questionable landings...

i applaud your wealth!

[barton]

edited 6.2018

[jcflies]

but, on the reasonable side, you won't have to pay a fortune to fly at torrey anymore! wu-hu!

[jcflies]

we should give oscar a break! why should he keep paying $200 to fly at torrey if he can do it for the cost of a day-use? have fun and be safe!

[Bob Kuczewski]

Congratulations Oscar!!!

Your food and drinks are free at the next Torrey Hawks Second Sunday!!

[OSCAR]

but, on the reasonable side, you won't have to pay a fortune to fly at torrey anymore! wu-hu!

Janyce ,you got that right ,I like coastal soaring more than mountain flying anyway.



I like that vanity plate ,I'd like to thank Whom ever flipped my plate I LIKE it,... I think I'll leave it like that

Thanks Bob,..... A free lunch WOW !

[Bob Kuczewski]

I like that vanity plate ,I'd like to thank Whom ever flipped my plate

I think they were suggesting that you start working on your aerobatic training. Maybe we can get John Heiney to do an informal clinic at one of our upcoming "Second Sundays".

Thanks Bob,..... A free lunch WOW !

Actually, we always have free food on Second Sundays at Torrey. But it will be "extra free" for you this time.

Thanks for all your support of the Hawks, Oscar. I hope our club continues to stand up for fairness for hang gliding at Torrey Pines for the many years I hope you'll be flying there!

[OP]

Apparently a H4 at Torrey Pines - what a F....ing Joke!

Yet another reason the people running that place should be booted out!

Wait.... what?

You can buy an H4. or they let H3s fly for 195$

Who broke the downtube?

[jcflies]

no, you can't buy a H4. it's a sticky situation. torrey is NOT an H4 site, but b/c of the city and regulations blah blah, H3s can not be given a sign-off (the way Joe does w/ H3s to launch at Towers.) So the people there, at Torrey, start to feel pretty ridiculous taking $200 from an H3 every time (s)he shows up to fly. The only real option is to see that that person is capable of launching, soaring, following the rules, and landing. (And, PLEASE, if we were to start yanking H4 ratings b/c of broken downtubes, I don't know if i'd KNOW any H4s...) Part of being a H4 anyway, is having sufficient judgment to not be a dumbass. If H3s want the experience of flying at Torrey five times, they can either spend $1000 or accept a H4, knowing that a H4 at Torrey is not a H4 at Kagel, Crestline, or any serious inland site.

You HAVE to make it.

[JT]

Part of being a H4 anyway, is having sufficient judgment to not be a dumbass.

Hmmm, considering the topic of this thread, I detect a disconnect from logic. Think about it.

[Bob Kuczewski]

I think I agree with Janyce's take on this.

But I don't like it when people in power tell us to do one thing and then look the other way when we do something else.

The old 55 mph speed limit is a typical example. It was broken by most motorists on an almost daily basis, and the only thing accomplished was making most drivers into habitual criminals - and decreasing their respect for the law.

Torrey is NOT inherently an H4 site. The fact that PG pilots can make their very first solo flights there is pretty good proof in itself. Now there are conditions at Torrey (high winds, heavy traffic) that can make it difficult for an H3 to fly there, but the same is true at Kagel or any other H3 site. We expect that an H3 pilot knows enough to know their own limitations (again, this applies to Kagel or any other H3 site).

It's also NOT a City requirement that Torrey be an H4 site. That's a rumor going around, and I challenge anyone to show me any document or evidence that the City of San Diego has declared Torrey to be an H4 site. We (USHPA, Chapters, and pilots) are self-regulated, and it's up to us to establish proper and responsible limitations on our sites. The fact that P0 pilots without a single solo flight can make their first solo at Torrey is prima facia evidence that the concessionaire can do whatever they want. I'm sure there's no City document that says a P0 can fly a paraglider while requiring an H4 to fly a hang glider.

So the real H4/Torrey question is whether it should even be an H4 site or whether it should be an H3 site with appropriate special skills sign-offs. That's what I would argue for. And if that's not acceptable, then I would question how the site can be sooooo sensitive that we require an H4, but yet we allow P0 pilots to make their first solo flights there almost every day of the week.

[JT]

Could someone corroborate that so-called "P0" (I've never seen that rating in the monthlly roster) PG pilots are making their first "solo" flights at Torrey? It seems very incongruent or it's a misrepresentation of what's really going on there. Either these pilots are extremely well-trained and/or they are doing something that counts for a lot of pre-solo practice or they and their instructors are negligent/certifiable.

I agree that many of our H3s and even some H2 pilots have the skills to ridge soar. Most could probably set up for a top landing.

Look at our LZ at Kagel. Only H4s on the grass. I was told many times that this was to avoid having incidents near spectators. Yet we all sit and sip beer after the flight waiting for our fellow H4 buddies to pound-in. The H2s and 3s in Falcons and such have a much lower rate of whacks (feeling, I've never doen a survey).

Which brings me back to Bob's post. I agree that Torrey could be re-rated, if the only reason for the rating is skill. It is much more difficult to get an H3 rating now than it was when the rules for Torrey were instituted. But there are other reasons that have been cited for the requirement: From Greblo

Neither Robin nor David Jebb had anything to do with the city of San Diego imposing a hang 4 requirement for hang gliders at Torrey. This was done more than 35 years ago, and after many accidents and injuries.

Still, it may be time to re-evalute.

I just don't trust Bob to be the one providing all the information. So please, someone who knows what's gong on, prepferably an experienced PG instructor, tell me what's going on.

[Bob Kuczewski]

Could someone corroborate that so-called "P0" (I've never seen that rating in the monthlly roster) PG pilots are making their first "solo" flights at Torrey? It seems very incongruent or it's a misrepresentation of what's really going on there. Either these pilots are extremely well-trained and/or they are doing something that counts for a lot of pre-solo practice or they and their instructors are negligent/certifiable.

JT, this shows why you should check your facts before jumping into a situation. Look into it and you'll find that PG students are making their first solo flights right there at Torrey. That's what's commonly called a "P0" rating because they do not yet have even a P1 rating.

I just don't trust Bob to be the one providing all the information.

I'm the one providing all the information because I'm the one who takes the time to come to Sylmar and to Crestline and reach out to our Region 3 members in general. When did David Jebb do that? When did Brad Hall do that (before he started taking shots at me)? It saddens me Jim, that I've spent so much of my time talking to you, and writing to you, and being honest with you and then you would make a statement like that.

Well, now you're going to find out. Call Torrey Pines tomorrow and ask them how many of their students make their first solo flights right there at Torrey Pines. I challenge you to do that Jim, and then report back to this forum. Here's the phone number: 858-452-9858. Let us know what you find out. If you don't trust my information then gather it yourself. Just be sure you're big enough to say you're sorry. Then you'll have my respect.

Thanks.
Bob Kuczewski

[JD]

Could someone corroborate that so-called "P0" (I've never seen that rating in the monthlly roster) PG pilots are making their first "solo" flights at Torrey? It seems very incongruent or it's a misrepresentation of what's really going on there..............

Torrey Rules

Hang Glider & Paraglider Operations

1. All pilots must be USHPA members
2. Hang glider pilots must have an USHPA Advanced (H-4) or equivalent foreign rating at the least. Paraglider pilots must have an USHPA Intermediate (P-3) or equivalent foreign rating at the least. Intermediate rated Paraglider pilots must have at least 50 hours of air time, prove-able in the form of a log book...........

So, if an H3 cannot fly Torrey without paying $195 for lessons then what happens when a P2 shows up at Torrey? Does he/she also have to pay for lessons? Bob? How does this work?

What goes into the lessons a P0 must take before that P0 is allowed to solo at Torrey? Once the P0 solos can they just come back any time they want and fly solo at Torrey? Or must that P0 earn his/her P3 before they can just show up and fly?

Why, for that matter is it rational to compare a P0 who solos at Torrey with an H3 who cannot solo at Torrey? Isn't this comparison really misleading?

I voted for leadership but did I mistakenly vote for mis-leadership? I sure hope not!

[JT]

I didn't ask you for a referendum on my ignorance, Bob. I asked for another opinion and more information because I don't trust your information. You are the one that has always asked me to listen to your opinion when you thought I may have heard from others. Apparently, you didn't expect any reciprocal attempts to seek out others' opinions after yours.

As usual, you ignore the content of the message. It was a request for a second, thougthful opinion. Maybe even propaganda. If I get a skewed view from someone on the other side, that should just about balance your rhetoric. Then I can make a better decision. You challenging me to call and find out sounds like "I double-dog dare you." What, were you afraid that a responsible party at Torrey might answer me on the forum? Hell, I'll just ask Joe. If I decide I care enough.

Once again, even though I agree that H3s may be acceptable at Torrey, that there may be reasons to re-evaluate the policy, because of your tunnel vision, you come out on the attack because I don't just accept everything you say. Were you an only child? Or were you the wolf pup that pushed his litter mates out of the den to get all the attention?

Why don't you apply for the spin doctor position for some politician where your skills might be of some use? Maybe you could be Tiger's new spokesperson? If you want to continue the role of fanatic, join Al Qaeda; I hear they have a lot of openings at the top lately.

[MikeB]

.....Once again, even though I agree that H3s may be acceptable at Torrey, that there may be reasons to re-evaluate the policy, because of your tunnel vision, you come out on the attack because I don't just accept everything you say. Were you an only child? Or were you the wolf pup that pushed his litter mates out of the den to get all the attention?

Why don't you apply for the spin doctor position for some politician where your skills might be of some use? Maybe you could be Tiger's new spokesperson? If you want to continue the role of fanatic, join Al Qaeda; I hear they have a lot of openings at the top lately.

This is an interesting phenomenon I see from time to time on several HG/PG forums. Bob usually replies to someone's post stating the facts as he sees them, avoiding any personal attacks. Then the other person claims Bob is "attacking" them and actually launches the only attack themself! The above post is a pretty rude personal attack.