"We've got a drinking problem."

[JT]

"There have been complaints about loud voices and lots of shouted profanity coming from our LZ some afternoons. Please, some self-moderation will go a long way in saving board members from having to make life less fun for everyone. Seriously, a little peer pressure could make a big difference right now. Thanks."

Who complained? I'm just curious. Neighbors? Other members? Or does it not really matter, except that we are a nuissance to someone?

[greblo]

I've not heard the details, but I'm told that Ken Andrews met with the neighbor and discussed it.
Joe

[Chip]

Was talking with Jay today, I think he also has some details on this

[dhmartens]

We could replace the missing oleanders with full grown bushes to absorb the sound.

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=201981
here is says cedar is best for insulation.

http://www.paisotec.com/MiniWeb/RockDel ... rriers.htm
or let some vines grow up on the fence.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/keepdown.htm
a concrete wall seems a bit much.

[stebbins]

We could replace the missing oleanders with full grown bushes to absorb the sound.

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=201981
here is says cedar is best for insulation.

http://www.paisotec.com/MiniWeb/RockDel ... rriers.htm
or let some vines grow up on the fence.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/keepdown.htm
a concrete wall seems a bit much.

Or we could stop yelling obscenities. What a concept. Being reasonable and thoughtful neighbors!

Oleanders are good for other reasons, though. And they certainly wouldn't hurt the sound issue.

[Ken Andrews]

It has been apparent for months that the amount of drinking in the LZ has been gradually increasing. When the dust settles at the end of a busy flying day, empty bottles are scattered across the picnic tables, lawn, and benches. And at the end of a non-flying day, the washtubs are often overflowing with Budweiser cans. In contrast, the Crestline LZ at the end of a day is always pristine, and they don't even have trash cans.

But what precipated the note Jim quotes was a visit I paid to our neighbor Arnold on Saturday. Those of you who have met him know that he's as good a neighbor as one could hope to have. He enjoys sitting outside on his patio on a nice afternoon, just as we do, but the loud voices and swearing were a problem. Aside from the language, he hears things that reflect badly on both the revelers and the club. Despite this, Arnold was very cordial and understanding. He expressed his confidence that the club would resolve this problem, and I assured him that we would. I hope we're both right.

Indeed, the LZ was very well mannered on Sunday afternoon, and I was proud of us.

Doug cleverly brings up the entirely unrelated subject of oleanders. You'll have noticed that Kate Freemantle and Katherine Yardley planted about 15 new ones a couple months ago, and Rome among others has worked on the irrigation system for them. Another of our neighbors, Mr. Lopez (I'm sorry I don't know his first name), has taken it upon himself to water them regularly and maintain the little dirt basins around them. He has also planted all the cacti between our fence and Gridley Street, and maintains that area as well! How many people have neighbors like that?

[JT]

If Arnold even mentions anything unflattering about us, we really must have messed up. As a neighbor, he is farther away than almost any property could be and still be within reasonable earshot. And he is very appreciative of the club. We must be pushing awfully hard in the wrong direction.

Time to clean up our act. Shooting hoops with empties and caps is a cute distraction but the sound breaking glass can't be very comforting to the neighbors. I think caps embedded in the grass make us cheesey. I'm done trying to be beer-can Kobe.

And who was loud enough to have Arnold hear obscenites that far away, on the other side of a block wall? I suspect that Arnold wasn't the only one offended.

In case anyone was wondering, this isn't a good time to alienate the population with Larry and Joe working hard on the CUP application process. Which, by the way, includes a public meeting to air support or
issues from members of the community.

[greblo]

Guys,
I ought to be more concerned about being your friend, avoiding these kinds of conflicts, and keeping you all very happy, so I can take your money and sell you things. You know I don't work that way. I'm concerned about this event and many others including the illegal campfires pilots are making in the l/z. I'm suggesting that Rick and Rome and others please stop bringing wood out to the l/z. I'm suggesting other club members stop burning the wood and use the barbeque like a barbeque. I'm asking all pilots to go somewhere else and drink or at the very least, put your beer can in a insulated holder to disguise it's contents and take your empty beer cans home with you. I'm asking pilots to stop urinating on other pilots tires and use the portable toilet. I'm asking pilots to quit running the stop sign over at Santiago Estates. I'm asking all of you to wholeheartedly support your board of directors as they try to keep this flying site available for you for years to come. Please, please, please, enough's enough.

In the early 1980's our neighbors made it clear to the police, the city, and to the newspaper reporters that the hang gliders were a menace and a danger to this neighborhood. We worked very hard to stop the passage of a city law banning hang gliding in Los Angeles and to win back the respect of our neighbors. I fear we are once again becoming a menace and a danger to their neighborhood.

Joe

[stebbins]

.....

In case anyone was wondering, this isn't a good time to alienate the population with Larry and Joe working hard on the CUP application process. Which, by the way, includes a public meeting to air support or
issues from members of the community.

It is not the case that this "isn't a good time." It is a terrible time for this to happen. In the last 15 years, this might be the worst time for it to happen. Please, let's keep the neighbors happy. When we go for the CUP, if they think of us as drunken louts they might ask (gasp!) that drinking not be allowed. They'd probably get that too, if they insisted. So you all have a choice. Be good neighbors, be less obvious (and less prolific?) in your drinking, be more concerned with how we are perceived or ... Risk having no booze in the LZ, or worse, no flying at all.

The no booze risk is no skin off my nose, not being a drinker. But darn it, it just makes sense that if you want a beer or two after flying that you make the small effort required to ensure that you can continue to do so.

The choice is up to us. And make no mistake about it, it is a choice. Even if YOU aren't the problem, if your friends are and you say nothing to them, you've chosen.

[Dan Barley]

My first post ever on this forum and on a subject which I hate to talk about. Having a cold beer at the end of a wonderful flight (or even a bad one) is something that I have always cherished.

But I sure do not like it when the extended drinking goes beyond our posted hours of operation (after dark) and becomes a nuisance to the neighborhood.

[JT]

This was one pilot expressing his concern, rightfully, over the recent rash of near-miss incidents.

It's not the one or two hang glider pilots that gets blended up in the engine that is the risk, it's the 80 to 150 people on the jet and the kids in the elementary school where it crashes who die that could blacken the image of Hang Gliding for years to come.

I think our safety is important but I also think at this moment it's important to demonstrate our concern for everyone's safety. After all I do really believe the free flight community to be a truly thoughtful one.

Inject the adjective "intoxicated" before "glider pilot", substitute "family with children in their car" for "80 to 150 people..." and imagine the 11PM news bite.

A couple of members have come perilously close to being snagged for DUI (an average $18,000 to $36,000 total accrued expense). The LZ looks like a busy recycling center. Whether or not this affects the club in the long run or the CUP gets alcohol banned isn't really an issue. What ever happens, happens. But doesn't it bother anyone that their and their friends' health and safety is more precarious on the ground than in the air? That the compost spread on the grass is rapidly changing composition to bottle caps and broken glass?

Where did the quoted pilot get the notion that we're a thoughtful community? Our neighbor has cancer and we treat him to sailor-speak and a view of a beer bottle horizon. Yeah, I think we can depend on him and the others nearby for future support.

I used to watch the father of the grown-up children across the street from my home use a push-broom to collect the lawn of beer cans and bottles every Sunday morning. I guess you'd think that I should feel home at the LZ. But that nuissance is gone now.

[JBBenson]

But doesn't it bother anyone that...their friends' health and safety is more precarious on the ground than in the air?

No.

More bothersome is that their boorishness threatens a flying site that has been here for many years, and threatens the recreation of better-mannered members.

Just ban alcohol and be done with it. For sure, people will put their cans into those foam sleeves, or paper bags, and others will look the other way.

But if and when the City clamps down, they WILL be on their own.

Everyone will looked shocked, and there will be a lot of tut-tutting and told-you-sos. But the offending members will be isolated.

Such a ban would give the club deniability, similar to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

[Don]

On the Kagel Kam, Greblo requests comments "...in a civil, constructive way." For me that is difficult

I find it hard to comprehend that a group that takes safety in the air (glider and harness inspections, helmet, chute, etc.) so seriously will have more than one or two beers and get behind the wheel of a car.

I don't know the history of this subject/problem but I'm sure the Board will think/talk/debate this topic in great detail before making any final decision. I suspect this is not the first time and most likely won't be the last time.

As for me? Been There, Done That! That is why you don't see me drinking and driving. What will it take for the rest of you to learn?

[dhmartens]

There is nothing civil about limiting our constitutional rights.
Freedom of association, or is it freedom of speech?

We the Brewers of Samuel Adams, in order to create the perfect beer, declare the following truths to be self-evident:

I. All beer drinkers are guaranteed a right to enjoy the highest quality beer.

II. Beer shall be brewed employing only the four classic beer ingredients; water, yeast, malt and hops.

III. Use of adjuncts such as corn syrup, rice or corn grits is strictly prohibited as it lightens the true character of a fine brew.

IV. Beer shall be brewed over a length of time to maximize flavor, not a shorter time to maximize production.

V. The color of the bottle is essential to the quality of the beer; hence, bottling shall occur only in brown bottles to safeguard the beer from the damaging effects of light. No skunky beer.

VI. Beer shall be offered in bottles, not cans, so that no brew is jeopardized with the taste of metal.

VII. Beer shall be savored and enjoyed responsibly.

VIII. Beer shall be served at 35 (degrees) - 42 (degrees) F for maximum flavor.

IX. Light beers have equal right to flavor and body, as do all styles of beer.

X. Freshness of beer shall be considered of the utmost importance to all citizens.

Anyways,
The worst thing that could happen is we become another Elsinore where you have to break down your glider and leave immediately after flying.

The soda cans and bottles can be recycled for about $10 per full bag. When they are not recycled they build up and mess up the park.
They should be emptied on a schedule like the portapotty. Imagine If that was allowed to overflow.
Throwing bottles or cans should be discontinued as it sounds like Depeche Mode's drummer warming up and is disturbing.

The loud voices heard by the neighbor must have been dusk or later when things get quiet and you can hear a pin drop a mile away. When SIBL is playing they generate a huge amount of noise. There is no way any neighbor can hear us.

SIBL has a no alcohol policy, but those are 8 year olds.

I guess we have to make sacrifices to get the CU permit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitio ... ted_States
The US had prohibition from 1920 to 1933, after that it was left up to the states.

California code says "...and to promote temperance in the use and
consumption of alcoholic beverages. "
Wine and beer are available at grocery stores and is taxed to provide vital services. I read here that our club can get a license and serve alcohol.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 3000-23047

Oh well I don't drink. I am more worried about the high fructose corn syrup in the soda machine causing a neighborhood wise obesity epidemic.

Doug

[abinder]

Huh??????????

There is nothing civil about limiting our constitutional rights.
Freedom of association, or is it freedom of speech?

We the Brewers of Samuel Adams, in order to create the perfect beer, declare the following truths to be self-evident:

I. All beer drinkers are guaranteed a right to enjoy the highest quality beer.

II. Beer shall be brewed employing only the four classic beer ingredients; water, yeast, malt and hops.

III. Use of adjuncts such as corn syrup, rice or corn grits is strictly prohibited as it lightens the true character of a fine brew.

IV. Beer shall be brewed over a length of time to maximize flavor, not a shorter time to maximize production.

V. The color of the bottle is essential to the quality of the beer; hence, bottling shall occur only in brown bottles to safeguard the beer from the damaging effects of light. No skunky beer.

VI. Beer shall be offered in bottles, not cans, so that no brew is jeopardized with the taste of metal.

VII. Beer shall be savored and enjoyed responsibly.

VIII. Beer shall be served at 35 (degrees) - 42 (degrees) F for maximum flavor.

IX. Light beers have equal right to flavor and body, as do all styles of beer.

X. Freshness of beer shall be considered of the utmost importance to all citizens.

Anyways,
The worst thing that could happen is we become another Elsinore where you have to break down your glider and leave immediately after flying.

The soda cans and bottles can be recycled for about $10 per full bag. When they are not recycled they build up and mess up the park.
They should be emptied on a schedule like the portapotty. Imagine If that was allowed to overflow.
Throwing bottles or cans should be discontinued as it sounds like Depeche Mode's drummer warming up and is disturbing.

The loud voices heard by the neighbor must have been dusk or later when things get quiet and you can hear a pin drop a mile away. When SIBL is playing they generate a huge amount of noise. There is no way any neighbor can hear us.

SIBL has a no alcohol policy, but those are 8 year olds.

I guess we have to make sacrifices to get the CU permit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitio ... ted_States
The US had prohibition from 1920 to 1933, after that it was left up to the states.

California code says "...and to promote temperance in the use and
consumption of alcoholic beverages. "
Wine and beer are available at grocery stores and is taxed to provide vital services. I read here that our club can get a license and serve alcohol.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 3000-23047

Oh well I don't drink. I am more worried about the high fructose corn syrup in the soda machine causing a neighborhood wise obesity epidemic.

Doug

[stebbins]

There is nothing civil about limiting our constitutional rights.
Freedom of association, or is it freedom of speech?

.........

Anyways,
The worst thing that could happen is we become another Elsinore where you have to break down your glider and leave immediately after flying.

The soda cans and bottles can be recycled for about $10 per full bag. When they are not recycled they build up and mess up the park.
They should be emptied on a schedule like the portapotty. Imagine If that was allowed to overflow.
Throwing bottles or cans should be discontinued as it sounds like Depeche Mode's drummer warming up and is disturbing.

The loud voices heard by the neighbor must have been dusk or later when things get quiet and you can hear a pin drop a mile away. When SIBL is playing they generate a huge amount of noise. There is no way any neighbor can hear us.

SIBL has a no alcohol policy, but those are 8 year olds.

I guess we have to make sacrifices to get the CU permit

.......

California code says "...and to promote temperance in the use and
consumption of alcoholic beverages. "
Wine and beer are available at grocery stores and is taxed to provide vital services. I read here that our club can get a license and serve alcohol.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displ ... 3000-23047

......

I second the "Huh???". Most of the above was just silly and largely off topic. Nobody is saying don't drink. Nobody is saying don't say what you want (speech). Nobody is saying don't hang with your buddies (association.) BUT, you cannot drive drunk legally. That is NOT a right that anyone has or should have. You cannot make unlimited amounts of noise. (And it is just stupid to annoy the neighbors. They have too much say over things that we care about to have them mad at us. And it isn't even the right thing to do.)

Doug says "they can't hear us". Then how did they know to complain? Magic? ESP? Dude, if they complained that we are loud, then they heard us! Evidence trumps theory every time.

Do you really WANT to HAVE to go to Elsinore to fly?

Soda cans/bottles ARE being collected. But we have increased consumption so much that the cans fill up before that happens. Either more trashcans or less beercans are required.

SIBL is NOT 8 year olds. The parents cannot drink either. The coaches, umpires, concessionaires, etc all cannot drink on premises. That is a condition of their CUP. A condition asked for by the neighbors, over the objections of many of the parents. Let's not piss off those neighbors, guys, or we will get the same restrictions (or worse.)

Get a license to serve alcohol? Are you out of your blankety-blank mind? We have enough issues now. Let's not go through that. The liability alone would be horrific.

This is a HANG GLIDING club. If we have to give up other activities in the LZ to keep flying, then that's what we have to do. That includes R/C planes, camping, parties and yes, beer. I don't want to cut those things out. But, if we don't control them, the neighbors will ask the city to do so. And WE....WILL....LOSE.

As the saying goes, "don't bite the hand that feeds you!"

[Glenn]

This issue could cause a lot of discord in the membership. Nobody will enjoy that. It will suck. Therefore we need to get past the argument and just solve it. Some of us hate the effects of the drinking. Some of us love the effects of the drinking. They are not the same effects. Everybody appreciates the socializing and fun of it. Nobody really wants to irritate the neighbors or have a trashy LZ. So, lets just stop the problem part. Keep the drinking on the down low. Keep it quiet. Pick up your trash and take it with you. C'mon this is really easy stuff compared to the headache we are heading for with our neighbors and between ourselves. If you drink in the LZ do these simple things and don't get pissed when people remind you of it, please. If you don't drink remember you have some shitty habit we hate, so chill. We are a group of different people. That's a good thing. Let's hang on to it. The ball is mostly in the court of the drinkers though. We can do this.

[Glenn]

Addendum to my above post is that if we cannot control ourselves then the board has no choice but to ban it. I truly hope not, for I despise the nanny role of our modern organizations and I like people drinking and having that dynamic there, but if this is an existential choice which it sounds like it may be, then the board directs a flying club not a drinking club. It is simple as that. There is a better option; control and consideration. Let's do that instead. If not then I support a ban. My very distant second choice.

[Glenn]

This is like my own private thread. I dominate. I just wanted to add that where I work there are people who come everyday to collect the cardboard and empty cans and bottles for the scrap value. Surely there are some in the Sylmar area that would come and pick the LZ clean if they knew about it. Anybody know such a person? They could be found at the local recycling center wherever that is.

[stebbins]

This is like my own private thread. I dominate. I just wanted to add that where I work there are people who come everyday to collect the cardboard and empty cans and bottles for the scrap value. Surely there are some in the Sylmar area that would come and pick the LZ clean if they knew about it. Anybody know such a person? They could be found at the local recycling center wherever that is.

Last time I checked, we had such a person. His name is Erwin. BUT, he shouldn't be expected to clean up bottle caps off of the ground. He shouldn't be expected to pick up broken glass, trash etc. He takes the cans and recycles them. Then the bins are empty again. And he's always done some cleanup of miscellaneous "forgotten" bottles and cans. BUT, when things get out of hand, he gets pissed (he's not your mamma!) Then he doesn't do it. Erwin and I have had our disagreements about what he should and shouldn't be doing around the LZ in exchange for living there. But cleaning up everyone else's crap isn't one of the things he should be doing. (I'm not talking about the occasionally forgotten can or bottle, but the mounds of things that are sometimes strewn about.) I suppose we could find someone who would be willing to do that in exchange for the bottles/cans, but they won't pick up the trash any more than Erwin will.

By the way, as a non-drinker, I don't care one hoot if we have alcohol or not. But, I object in principle to having to ban it. On the other hand, it IS a hang gliding club, and if anything gets in the way of that, I will reluctantly vote for whatever keeps us flying. (Driving drunk, is an entirely different matter than having a drink or two. You don't want to hear my opinion on that. Really, you don't.)