Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

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Gayle Ellett
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Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

Post by Gayle Ellett »

I was looking for the Accident Reports for the two fatalities we had in the LZ last year (2008), but I could not find them.

Jeff and Richard were great guys and good friends of mine.
Information is always helpful!!!!
Does anyone know where they are?

I also never saw anything about it in the national glossy magazine.

Many Thanks!

Gayle
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Don
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Accident Reports

Post by Don »

I can't help on Richard's.

Jeff's will probably be in the USHPA in the next month or two. Ken Andrews asked me to review/edit/fill-in-the-blanks it a couple weeks ago.
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JD
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Post by JD »

Please read Tom Cornelius' eye witness account of Jeff's crash: http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/2 ... mment-1912
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Joe Greblo had sent in one to the USHPA* and the SHGA. If not, I'd take this opportunity to ask him and anyone else who was a witness to do so. (I'd also like to thank anyone who did one!) These things are tough, I know, especially the fatal ones. But they do help. Not as much as we'd like, of course, but even a little bit of improved safety is better than none.

I've been missing Richard lately. Don't know why. But I've seen at least three people out of the corner of my eye that I thought were him before I remembered.

Fly safe, my friends.



* And I know it takes USHPA a while to get them in the magazine sometimes.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
jcflies
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Post by jcflies »

awesome!! i hope this means you are not quitting, after all!!!
see you on launch!
janyce

"You HAVE to make it..."
greblo
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Post by greblo »

Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA. I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files. I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident, I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.

This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators. These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.

The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends. I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.
jcflies
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Post by jcflies »

thank-you joe, i hope they don't, out of deference to the pilots themselves. i think it's way better to acknowledge that some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing got them, and move on. it's jeff's sweet nature, sense of humor, and kindness that I want to remember, and richard's acerbic wit and general appreciation of life's absurdities--knowing how they died won't help me become a better pilot (or spectator) but knowing that they died, will. i miss them both, often...
janyce

"You HAVE to make it..."
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

I can understand the desire not to publish out of deference to the pilots (and even more to their families.) If there is some way for PILOTS to get that info but nobody else, that's great. But, pilots need to see it. Some of them learn things that keep them safer.
jcflies wrote:... i think it's way better to acknowledge that some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing got them, and move on....
The statement above by Janyce is counterproductive, and implies something contrary to the facts. While there are (very occasional) times when nothing the pilot could do would have avoided or solved the issue (short of not flying at all*), usually there <i>is</i> something that could have been done. Anybody who thinks otherwise increases their odds of future accidents.

There are resons that some people crash more often than others, and luck is very low on that list. Does anyone in their right mind think that the reason Rob McKenzie has had over 6,000 safe flights in a row is luck? Or that the reason that Ludwig crashed so often was luck? Or that the MONSTER likes Rob and hates Ludwig?

I wasn't there for either accident, and haven't read the accident reports, only talked to a witness of one of them. I don't know which category those accidents fall into (although I have an opinion, but that's all it is.) So please don't think I'm claiming I know what caused those particular accidents - I don't.

But I can say with certainty that each and every time I've had a bad landing, an injury, or even "pulled it off", that there was something to be learned by me and others. Sometimes a small thing, sometimes a large one, but there was always something. The same can be said for almost every crash I've witnessed over 25 years, as well as most non-crashes that got "pulled off" . Shutting your eyes to that kind of information makes you more likely to be the next victim than if you paid attention to it.

I'd hate it if that happened.



* And of course, sometimes not flying at all is the right thing too. Been there. Done that. Drove down the hill.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
jcflies
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Post by jcflies »

ok then, publish away! discuss in minute details the bad decisions made.

i apologize for wanting to protect my friends.

just the facts, ma'am!
janyce

"You HAVE to make it..."
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

I also want to protect my friends. I just think it is more important to protect people's lives than people's memory*. I prefer to protect the living. If I can do both, that's even better. But given a choice, the answer is clear to me.

You may disagree. That is, of course, your perogative. And you have a right to that opinion, or any other.

I'm glad to see that you are flying again.


* I only knew Jeff a little bit, but Richard was a friend. I understand wanting to protect their memories, and even more the feelings of their families. But if they died due to mistakes or poor choices (no matter how minor), I believe they'd want their friends to learn from those mistakes.
If I ever die in a crash, I hope people look at what happened coldly, dispassionately, logically, and clearly. I hope they use my mistake(s) as a teaching tool to reduce the chance of someone else having the same problem. Fly safely, my friends.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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Christian
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Post by Christian »

Joe, you need to publish the reports on the forum. They do not need names or speculation. They are most useful because they tell what happened, with the addition of potential contributing factors.

Contributing factors that might cause pain to survivors can be left out. I don't believe that includes observations about technique , condiditions or comparision of accident pilot behavior to generally accepted standard practice.

Without a written accident report, rumor and misinformation and assumptions are likley to cause more trouble than a straight, public acounting of what witnesses saw happen.

In five years, such a public report will be the only reliable, contemporaneous story of the incident. Everything else will be hearsay and rusting memory.
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lswendt
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Post by lswendt »

Back in the day, the national publication used to publish each report as written and submitted, not in summary form is as done today.

Apparently they thought it useful to do so at the time.

lw
Fat Fred
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Post by Fat Fred »

When you submit an accident report to USHPA there is an online form for this. It is a fairly comprehensive report form although it is easy to use. I used it when I submitted a report for Jeff. The problem is that when you click the send button, you no longer have access to the report. Joe Greblo found this out the hard way when he sumitted Richards report. USHPA will not give you a copy even though you are the person submitting the report. I know this because I was trying to get a copy of the report for club records so I called USHPA and they would not bend their rules on this. It is important that if you wish to have a copy that you print it out before submitting it. This may have changed but was definitely the program when Joe submitted his for Richard.

-Fred-
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

When I submitted one a while back, I wrote in in a separate document and then cut and pasted into their form. That way I had a copy.

I didn't do it because I was smart, or knew they'd keep it. I did it that way because I was editing as I went. I just got lucky. But, if you do want a copy, that's the way to go.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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