Hang Gliders and B737's near Sylmar

Talk about anything hang gliding.

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chadness
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Hang Gliders and B737's near Sylmar

Post by chadness »

I travel for work alot and rare is a week that I don't get to buzz our mountains in a Southwest jet (wish I buzzed them that often in my glider). Today was a good one. Las Vegas to Burbank, normal over the desert approach over Palmdale. But using the Southward runway at Burbank (somewhat rare), so a weird "s" turn (no idea why) and head due south early. Flew over the mountains between Kagel and Lances, really low (maybe 5000???). 3:10 pm on Thursday, April 17. I saw a near by pilot flying a single surface with orange leading edge and another kingposted intermediate glider seemly trying to get away. When I exited, I asked the pilot if he saw my buddies, and he said, "yep sure did". Asked if it was a problem and he no it was fine. Looked really close to me...

My take away, Joe Greblo tells us about the Victor Airway 459 that runs along the mountains at 7k, and we all expect inbound from the North westward of the 2200', but it seems there isn't a completely safe spot above that range. Keep your best VFR watch on. Happy Spring.
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dhmartens
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Post by dhmartens »

The orange glider was my falcon 2 225. One of the benefits of an orange leading edge is people can see you. Eric was in a falcon with a white leading edge at about 3000' heading towards launch to evade the big purple 737 with vertical fins on the wing tips. Your 5000' estimate is a bit high in my opinion as I was between the 1st and 2nd bowls at maybe around 4500' heading down the ridge and I could see the top of both wings looking down at an angle similar to my 30 degree angle for final approach. I was shocked to see a 737 that low at possibly 2800' to 3500' and near the 3rd bowl or the bench and with only a 3 to 5 second warning. My first thought was this was the FAA's territorial pissing to kindly remind us about right of way rules after Sunday's hang glider confetti in the victor airway. A rare event.

I read this in the news about required transponders.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJIJ ... QD8VPD7K00

Doug
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chadness
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Post by chadness »

Hi Doug,

I don't doubt that my flight passed over our mountains at 2800 to 3500. From in the plane it felt so low that it spooked *me*. Its very hard to tell as a passenger looking only out the side (your side) and I didn't want to exaggerate.

I have never witnessed such an approach so low and east of Kagel (either in the plane or glider) before. It much reduced my concept of 737-safe airspace in the area.

The pilot seemed friendly and didn't give me any signs of concern or even interest of hang gliders, but did acknowledge that he say them. I would have loved to speak with him more to try to get a better litmus test of the opinions of us in the Burbank world.

Will look for you in the sky on Wed afternoon (1:30) and Friday afternoon (3:30). Maybe I should start bringing a camera...
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stebbins
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Post by stebbins »

dhmartens wrote:........

I read this in the news about required transponders.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJIJ ... QD8VPD7K00

Doug
The good news is that currently, they are only talking about them for SAILPLANES, not hang gliders. The bad news is that if they require them for us, you can expect to fly with a huge battery or not at all. The sailplane community is suggesting that they use those "airplane detectors" that Greblo and others have talked about on this forum. Being receivers instead of transmitters, they use far less power and are much smaller. It makes sense to me!

I had occasion to talk to someone on the BOD of the Soaring Society of America (SSA) last month. We talked about requiring one of those transponders on a hang glider. (She is an ex hang glider pilot.) She thought it could be done, but would be very very cumbersome.

You need a transponder to go over 18,000 feet, which was the topic of the discussion. You also need lots of other paperwork, radios etc. I decided it wasn't worth it for what I want to do. I may change my mind, though.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
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Christian
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Post by Christian »

Approaching Burbank over Kagel you were high to clear the mountains, now you gotta get down to the runway at 800 MSL. The typical ATC instruction is "maintain 3,000 until Four Stacks" or maybe "maintain 3000 till on final," if I recall right.

To a power pilot, they're ordering you to stay "high"--presumably for noise abatement. After passing over Kagel you have a lot of altitude to lose, you'd like to get started right away. It why the planes look low, and they'd rather be lower.

For what it;s worth, the view from a plane is usually good and I could always see hang gliders clearly. Commerical pilots may be be on instruments but somebody's looking outside too--they're deathly afraid of a stray Cessna 152 . In a plane, it's just not particularly scary to pass "close" to a hang glider. For us it is--when a 737 went by 2 miles away it left me feeling like I was standing naked in the middle of the 405 freeway.

Personally I don't think it's worth worrying about. Personally I wouldn't be interested in an instrument that could indentify transponders heading at me, because even in GA, with ATC calling conflicts and a $10K personal TCAS, the false positives are nerve wracking. Eyeballs, however, work. It's a big sky and we are much more likely to run into each other-- 75 feet over launch.
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rsherwoo
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words from a United pilot

Post by rsherwoo »

I asked a United pilot about this incident and she replied:

"I read the discussion and I'm glad that I wasn't one of those guys looking at that 737.

I very rarely fly into BUR. I can't even remember the last time that I flew into there. I don't think that I have ever landed south since I have worked at UAL (since 1989). I don't have much to offer you except a visual approach that I have attached. Also, on our 10-7 page that provides us with text information, there is a sentence under the Arrival section titled Traffic Hazards that says, "There is also hang glider activity 6NM N of the airport at 6000 feet AGL." There might be more info in our NOTAM section."

I have this great image if someone can tell me how to post it or will post it for me if I email it to them.[/img]
H4
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JD
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Re: words from a United pilot

Post by JD »

rsherwoo wrote:......I have this great image if someone can tell me how to post it or will post it for me if I email it to them.
Rob sent me the image this morning. It's kind of large so I uploaded it and linked it here: http://photos.imageevent.com/aero92/misc/BUR.jpg

It's the Four Stacks Visual Approach to Runway 15 at Burbank taken from a Jeppesen chart. Since I'm new to flying at Sylmar I'll be glad if somebody wants to explain it.

Here's a portion of it:

Image
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Christian
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Post by Christian »

Well, the thing is, they want you to maintain 5,000 over Oat Mountain. And then they want you to maintain 3,000 until you turn to line up with the runway. So you are flying through our area at hang gliding altitudes.

A private pilot would always like to make a gradual approach--set up a 500fpm descent 10-20 miles out, get stabilized, and enjoy the ride. But in our mountainous, high-traffic area that;'s not possible--so you have the chart in your lap, ATC in your ears, your're scanning for landmarks (four stacks and Whiteman) and can;t change altitude without permission.

Your transponder is showing the tower your position, speed , vector and altitude, and if you deviate you get yelled at. (Youre expected to maintain your expected altitude exactly. If you miss a landmark or an instruction--and the radio chatter can be dense, you can miss your call sign--ATC concludes you're an idiot, starts treating you like one).

If youve never been to runway 15 before, its all new. Adding hang gliders can be an unexpected extra.

Compared to the airlines, private pilots are pretty much like hang gliders. They are on their own, overloaded with inputs, and dont always have that Chuck Yeager feeling of being in the moment. Its all doable, there's just a lot of it--like coming around our pattern in a crosswind, tossed like a doll, with somebody on a topless behind you and the guy in front just pronged in the middle of the runway and isn;t moving out of the way.

But we can coexist, if everybody recognizes the other guy's issues. And I think it is up to us to know about them, since there are more of them.
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