Anyone Regional Director that claims they would support Bob's Accountability Amendment as it is currently written, is very likely change his/her mind within 15 minutes of discussion with those knowledgeable about corporate procedure among membership sports organizations such as ours. There are commonly a large number of separate voting issues that are raised during the 2-3 days of our Semi-annual Board of Director meetings. Most of these votes carry little if any controversy, and can be dealt with very efficiently in the available time. This is necessary if the board is to accomplish much in the 2 weekends per year that they meet.
As I understand it, Bob's amendment as written allows any one Director to call for a roll call vote at anytime he or she chooses, for any reason. I believe one of the main reason that few corporations and few sports organizations such as ours, allow a single Director to call for a roll call vote, is to remove the possibility of a single Director with disruptive intent, to hijack the entire meeting and bring it to a grindingly slow pace by demanding a roll call vote on every single issue. Disruptive and even hostile Directors are not unheard of in the corporate world and this tactic should not be encouraged. Imagine how this would slow the voting process.
I suspect that Bob's currently worded amendment, stands little chance of passage, so supporting it would be naive or foolish. But after reasonable consideration in committee, it will likely end up being modified into a final amendment that will stand a chance of success. Perhaps the board would agree that any 2, or 3, or 5 Directors be required to effect a roll call vote. Bob's amendment is a good starting point of discussion.
I applaud any Director that is smart enough to escape the trap of committing to any specifically worded amendment until after it receives a thorough discussion in committee and all pros and cons have been considered. I keep hearing Bob ask the question "Will you support my Accountability Amendment? Would you want your Regional Director to publicly commit himself in this way? Perhaps a better question would be "Are you in favor of accountability in the voting process?
The other side
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Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Joe,
With all due respect, the USHPA Board only meets twice a year, for a total of about 4 or 5 days. That makes it very difficult to get anything done in that time frame if it has not been discussed in advance of the meetings. That's why the competition committee has been holding email discussions for many months now - so they can address all the issues and come to a concensus when the meeting time finally arrives. I think that's a constructive use of the average 6 months between Board meetings, and I think a discussion of the Accountability Amendment would benefit from those kinds of preparatory discussions. Brad doesn't want to discuss the Accountability Amendment between Board meetings because he just doesn't want to pass it - period. So Brad saying that he won't have an opinion until it comes up at the meeting is just a dodge. Hopefully everyone can see that.
Now if you check the web site (http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/USHPA_Secret_Ballots) you'll also see a column reserved for "Notes". That was intended as a place for Directors (and candidates) to offer their own comments such as "Note: I would support this if we require a second to call the roll". So it is incorrect to characterize this as an all or nothing proposition forced onto the Directors. And standing up for what's right in the face of entrenched opposition is neither "naive or foolish". Instead, it's the first step toward change ("First they ignore you. then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Gandhi). We wouldn't be flying today if those who went before us had heeded those who felt manned flight was either "naive or foolish".
I'd also like to point out that calling the roll can be conducted in a few minutes - much less time than has been spent on secret ballots. So that's a red herring. And even if some rogue Director began calling the roll on every ballot, so what? The Board would quickly get much better at calling the roll. I'll bet the 25 or so names could be called and noted in less than a minute if the board got into a groove on it. They might even adopt an electrionic system like the San Diego City Council has where each Councilmember simply presses a button to register their votes. They make all of their votes public with that system, and USHPA could easily do the same using the system of networked laptops that we already have at the meetings. So this is a non-issue in many ways.
Finally, I will note that voting records are the key feedback mechanism in any representative body. They are the only way that the voters (USHPA members) have any idea if the people they're voting for (Directors) are doing what they want or not. Without a Director's voting record, then what are we voting for when we cast our ballots as members? Is it just a popularity contest without any substance?
Bob Kuczewski
=======================
P.S. For the record, the Organization and Bylaws Committee (with Brad Hall's implicit approval) passed the changes listed below. The first two (02-10.04 and 02-10.05) essentially say that the presiding officer can do whatever they want. They can use any rules they want. They can change the rules whenever they want. They can call for secret ballots whenever they want and they can call the roll whenever they want. This is the most ridiculous set of rules I've ever seen. Go ahead and read 02-10.04 and 02-10.05 and see if I'm right. That's what Brad Hall voted to pass!
The next section 02-10.06 is another attempt to keep a lid on the meetings so Directors cannot be held accountable for what they say. Compare this to the San Diego City Council meetings which are video-taped and published (and even archived) on the web for everyone to see whenever they want. This is USHPA closing itself off from its members rather than opening up as they should. Brad Hall voted to pass this as well.
The Remote Attendance language (02-10.07) is fine, and it formalizes the Executive Committee's ability to hold their monthly teleconferences. But the last sentence allows the Executive Committee to exclude Directors from their meetings (making them secret), and this is also going in the wrong direction. Brad Hall voted for this also.
Finally, I was concerned that USHPA tightened up its Chapter renewal language. I asked if this was targeted at the Torrey Hawks, and I was told that it was actually targeted at some other Chapter that someone felt should not be a chapter. We'll see if it is abused. We do know that Brad Hall supported this, and he also tried to pass an amendment requiring Regional Director approval for new Chapters (back in 2007 when he and Jebb were the only San Diego Directors). Brad's 2007 proposal was intended to keep the Hawks from being a USHPA Chapter, but he didn't bother passing it after he discovered that he was too late (shameful Brad).
My motion was not seconded, and so the original changes (listed above) have now been approved by the Board.
If you think these new changes toward secrecy are making our organization better, then you should vote for Brad Hall.
But if you want USHPA to be more open and accountable to its members, then please vote for Jerry Katz!!!
With all due respect, the USHPA Board only meets twice a year, for a total of about 4 or 5 days. That makes it very difficult to get anything done in that time frame if it has not been discussed in advance of the meetings. That's why the competition committee has been holding email discussions for many months now - so they can address all the issues and come to a concensus when the meeting time finally arrives. I think that's a constructive use of the average 6 months between Board meetings, and I think a discussion of the Accountability Amendment would benefit from those kinds of preparatory discussions. Brad doesn't want to discuss the Accountability Amendment between Board meetings because he just doesn't want to pass it - period. So Brad saying that he won't have an opinion until it comes up at the meeting is just a dodge. Hopefully everyone can see that.
Now if you check the web site (http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/USHPA_Secret_Ballots) you'll also see a column reserved for "Notes". That was intended as a place for Directors (and candidates) to offer their own comments such as "Note: I would support this if we require a second to call the roll". So it is incorrect to characterize this as an all or nothing proposition forced onto the Directors. And standing up for what's right in the face of entrenched opposition is neither "naive or foolish". Instead, it's the first step toward change ("First they ignore you. then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Gandhi). We wouldn't be flying today if those who went before us had heeded those who felt manned flight was either "naive or foolish".
I'd also like to point out that calling the roll can be conducted in a few minutes - much less time than has been spent on secret ballots. So that's a red herring. And even if some rogue Director began calling the roll on every ballot, so what? The Board would quickly get much better at calling the roll. I'll bet the 25 or so names could be called and noted in less than a minute if the board got into a groove on it. They might even adopt an electrionic system like the San Diego City Council has where each Councilmember simply presses a button to register their votes. They make all of their votes public with that system, and USHPA could easily do the same using the system of networked laptops that we already have at the meetings. So this is a non-issue in many ways.
Finally, I will note that voting records are the key feedback mechanism in any representative body. They are the only way that the voters (USHPA members) have any idea if the people they're voting for (Directors) are doing what they want or not. Without a Director's voting record, then what are we voting for when we cast our ballots as members? Is it just a popularity contest without any substance?
Bob Kuczewski
=======================
P.S. For the record, the Organization and Bylaws Committee (with Brad Hall's implicit approval) passed the changes listed below. The first two (02-10.04 and 02-10.05) essentially say that the presiding officer can do whatever they want. They can use any rules they want. They can change the rules whenever they want. They can call for secret ballots whenever they want and they can call the roll whenever they want. This is the most ridiculous set of rules I've ever seen. Go ahead and read 02-10.04 and 02-10.05 and see if I'm right. That's what Brad Hall voted to pass!
The next section 02-10.06 is another attempt to keep a lid on the meetings so Directors cannot be held accountable for what they say. Compare this to the San Diego City Council meetings which are video-taped and published (and even archived) on the web for everyone to see whenever they want. This is USHPA closing itself off from its members rather than opening up as they should. Brad Hall voted to pass this as well.
The Remote Attendance language (02-10.07) is fine, and it formalizes the Executive Committee's ability to hold their monthly teleconferences. But the last sentence allows the Executive Committee to exclude Directors from their meetings (making them secret), and this is also going in the wrong direction. Brad Hall voted for this also.
Finally, I was concerned that USHPA tightened up its Chapter renewal language. I asked if this was targeted at the Torrey Hawks, and I was told that it was actually targeted at some other Chapter that someone felt should not be a chapter. We'll see if it is abused. We do know that Brad Hall supported this, and he also tried to pass an amendment requiring Regional Director approval for new Chapters (back in 2007 when he and Jebb were the only San Diego Directors). Brad's 2007 proposal was intended to keep the Hawks from being a USHPA Chapter, but he didn't bother passing it after he discovered that he was too late (shameful Brad).
Now, please compare all of that to my simple Accountability Amendment:Organization and Bylaws Committee wrote:02-10.04 Conduct of Meetings
A. The conduct of meetings is at the discretion and authority of the presiding Officer or Chair. When order is necessary, the Chair may use parliamentary procedures. Examples of procedures the Chair might use are "Parlimentary Procedure at a Glance" by O. Garfield Jones or Roberts Rules of Order.
B. The meeting Chair is responsible for determining the agenda of the meeting in collaboration with and approval of the President of USHPA.
02-10.05 Voting Procedures
A. Voting procedures at USHPA meetings are at the discretion of the meeting Chair, unless otherwise specified by other SOPs or the Bylaws of the corporation. The Chair can request a voice vote, show of hands, secret ballot, roll call or any other voting method.
02-10.06 Audio Recording, Video Recording and Broadcast of Meetings
A. Audio recording, video recording and broadcast of meetings are not allowed without the permission of every person lawfully in attendance at the meeting. Broadcast includes traditional broadcasting methods such as television, as well as new media broadcast methods such as telephones, internet connections and any other methods of transmission.
02-10.07 Remote Attendance at Meetings
A. The Chair of the meeting may allow anyone otherwise authorized to attend the meeting in person to attend and participate in the meeting from a remote location using a telephone, internet connection or similar method.
B. Anyone otherwise authorized to attend the meeting in person wishing to attend and participate in a meeting from a remote location must submit a written request to the meeting Chair at least two weeks prior to the meeting. Remote attendance and participation is at the discretion of the meeting chair.
06-01.04 Revocation of Chapter Status
A. Failure to conform to these requirements could lead to revocation of the chapter status by the Board of Directors until such time as the Board of Directors determines the organization has again met all requirements.
B. Chapter status can be revoked for failure to conform to any of the requirements in sections 06-01.02 and 06-01.03.
I introduced a motion that this Accountability Amendment should replace 02-10.04 and 02-10.05 (above). My motion also requested that 02-10.06 be removed, and that the last sentence of 02-10.07B be removed. My motion further requested that 06-01.04 be removed.All meetings (including Board of Director Meetings, Committee Meetings, General Membership Meetings, and others) shall be governed by Robert's Rules of Order Revised unless otherwise provided for in these By-Laws or listed specifically below:
(a) In accordance with one of the practices discussed in Robert's Rules of Order Revised, a Roll Call vote (Yeas and Nays) shall be taken if requested by any Director. The names and votes of all Directors during any such Roll Call vote shall be included in the minutes of the meeting for distribution to the general membership.
My motion was not seconded, and so the original changes (listed above) have now been approved by the Board.
If you think these new changes toward secrecy are making our organization better, then you should vote for Brad Hall.
But if you want USHPA to be more open and accountable to its members, then please vote for Jerry Katz!!!
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
I just want to offer one more comment about Brad Hall that I've seen from my perspective down here in San Diego. Brad has been very sneaky in using his Regional Directorship against clubs and people that he doesn't like. Let me give you just one example...
In 2008 I got a tip that Brad Hall had been writing secret letters to the San Diego City Council trying to undermine the Torrey Hawks. So I did the honorable thing and asked Brad directly if he had written anything to the City about the Hawks. Brad refused to answer. Several other members of the Hawks asked Brad if he had written to the San Diego City Council, and he refused to answer them as well. Eventually, my tip led me to San Diego City Councilwoman Donna Frye, and so I asked her if she had been contacted by Brad Hall. Fortunately, Donna Frye believes in open government, and she was very willing to share Brad's correspondence. If you want to see what Brad Hall wrote behind our backs and refused to produce when asked, please visit:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=8045
Unfortunately, we have not been able to find out who else Brad has written such "poison pen" letters to. He's been asked to produce his official correspondence with the Mayor's office, the Parks Departments (City and State), and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. He hasn't produced one document to this date.
Now we can disagree on a whole range of topics. But having a Director who does sneaky things behind our backs is unacceptable - period.
How would the Sylmar club know if Brad Hall were writing to your own City Council trying to convince them to give David Jebb (or anyone else) control over your own flying sites? If you can't trust him to come out and tell you, then how would you know?
Brad, I challenge you to post all of your correspondence with governmental organizations (including the Torrey Pines Soaring Council) so we'll all know how you've been conducting yourself in our name.
In 2008 I got a tip that Brad Hall had been writing secret letters to the San Diego City Council trying to undermine the Torrey Hawks. So I did the honorable thing and asked Brad directly if he had written anything to the City about the Hawks. Brad refused to answer. Several other members of the Hawks asked Brad if he had written to the San Diego City Council, and he refused to answer them as well. Eventually, my tip led me to San Diego City Councilwoman Donna Frye, and so I asked her if she had been contacted by Brad Hall. Fortunately, Donna Frye believes in open government, and she was very willing to share Brad's correspondence. If you want to see what Brad Hall wrote behind our backs and refused to produce when asked, please visit:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=8045
Unfortunately, we have not been able to find out who else Brad has written such "poison pen" letters to. He's been asked to produce his official correspondence with the Mayor's office, the Parks Departments (City and State), and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. He hasn't produced one document to this date.
Now we can disagree on a whole range of topics. But having a Director who does sneaky things behind our backs is unacceptable - period.
How would the Sylmar club know if Brad Hall were writing to your own City Council trying to convince them to give David Jebb (or anyone else) control over your own flying sites? If you can't trust him to come out and tell you, then how would you know?
Brad, I challenge you to post all of your correspondence with governmental organizations (including the Torrey Pines Soaring Council) so we'll all know how you've been conducting yourself in our name.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
When you are against transparency you join the ranks of the Chinese Communists who avoid transparency on what they spend on military, and the thugocracy in Iran who is working on secret uranium enrichment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparen ... ehavior%29
Wikipedia entry on transparency
http://www.transparency.org/
Transparency international
Mainly a corruption index
Seems like a trend these days.
I'm not sure of the total effect on a hang gliding organization though.
Doug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparen ... ehavior%29
Wikipedia entry on transparency
http://www.transparency.org/
Transparency international
Mainly a corruption index
Seems like a trend these days.
I'm not sure of the total effect on a hang gliding organization though.
Doug
A complete stenograph isn't required of each meeting, but each issue discussed and the outcome of major points would be nice to see in a published meeting minutes. The minutes should include not the discussion but a general result.
The idea is, if your local representative does'nt vote or otherwise preform in a manner that fits your local club... then you can vote them out.
The idea is, if your local representative does'nt vote or otherwise preform in a manner that fits your local club... then you can vote them out.
WTF! Are you serious? Did this really happen? What is that guys problem.Bob Kuczewski wrote:I just want to offer one more comment about Brad Hall that I've seen from my perspective down here in San Diego. Brad has been very sneaky in using his Regional Directorship against clubs and people that he doesn't like. Let me give you just one example...
In 2008 I got a tip that Brad Hall had been writing secret letters to the San Diego City Council trying to undermine the Torrey Hawks. So I did the honorable thing and asked Brad directly if he had written anything to the City about the Hawks. Brad refused to answer. Several other members of the Hawks asked Brad if he had written to the San Diego City Council, and he refused to answer them as well. Eventually, my tip led me to San Diego City Councilwoman Donna Frye, and so I asked her if she had been contacted by Brad Hall. Fortunately, Donna Frye believes in open government, and she was very willing to share Brad's correspondence. If you want to see what Brad Hall wrote behind our backs and refused to produce when asked, please visit:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=8045
Unfortunately, we have not been able to find out who else Brad has written such "poison pen" letters to. He's been asked to produce his official correspondence with the Mayor's office, the Parks Departments (City and State), and the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. He hasn't produced one document to this date.
Now we can disagree on a whole range of topics. But having a Director who does sneaky things behind our backs is unacceptable - period.
How would the Sylmar club know if Brad Hall were writing to your own City Council trying to convince them to give David Jebb (or anyone else) control over your own flying sites? If you can't trust him to come out and tell you, then how would you know?
Brad, I challenge you to post all of your correspondence with governmental organizations (including the Torrey Pines Soaring Council) so we'll all know how you've been conducting yourself in our name.
Certainly this makes our position more difficult. Imagine the council members position. They have little interest in our concerns, yet when they come in contact with us for policy reasons, we are sabotaging ourself's and sending secret letters. Weird world.
On the other, other, other side we don't know who these Torry Hawks are. They could be a band of mischievous malevolent sky bikers destined to spread disarray. If we gave them a chance we might at least be able to find out though. Also, publishing our every move could tip off our sworn enemies like Serco, who banned hang gliding at Missoula, and let them make moves to counter our moves before we even make them.
Doug
Doug
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Rome Dodson
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:42 am
TORY
MAKE TORRY H.G. FRIENDLY, VOTE FOR KATZ. ROME
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JT
Isn't this damn election over? When do they count the votes? Please, please, please!!! When someone knows the results, post them immediately! Maybe then the endless attacks and rationalizations will end and Torrey Pines can continue to be the HG unfriendly paragliding site that everyone has told me it is. I don't care! I don't need to fly a boring ridge site. It may be fine for tuning a LiteSpeed but after a few minutes, what's to do? Dodge RCs, sailplanes and jellyfish? What fun.
Someone please bury this thread in the file for people who have tunnel-vision. The election was for a regional director, not an HG booster for one cliff site. You want to ridge soar the beach? Go to Funston. A nice road trip and you air-junkies might be able to catch Plaskett on the beautiful ride home on PCH.
See you all at, mostly jelly-free, Kagel.
Someone please bury this thread in the file for people who have tunnel-vision. The election was for a regional director, not an HG booster for one cliff site. You want to ridge soar the beach? Go to Funston. A nice road trip and you air-junkies might be able to catch Plaskett on the beautiful ride home on PCH.
See you all at, mostly jelly-free, Kagel.
well, if you live one fwy exit from your local flying site, then you are definitely in an admired position. but if you happen to live south of elsinore and north of valle, then what are you supposed to do? ridge soaring may be boring after a few passes, but good pilots (mind you, i ain't implying i'm one of 'em) can ALWAYS find ways to amuse themselves! besides, torrey is beautiful. airtime is airtime and sometimes you are willing to take what you can get. i'd HATE to have to spend six hours driving just to get a "normal" flight on a marginal day at kagel. and many pg pilots are good enough to out-fly a lot of hg pilots, as many of 'em are world class and fly both. i tend to think they avoid our site because many of us fly like dorks!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ohXg08SYA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ohXg08SYA[/youtube]
janyce
"You HAVE to make it..."
"You HAVE to make it..."
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JT
So, Janyce, it sounds as if you're arguing that Torrey should be more HG friendly, whoever can make that happen. That way, all our dorks from Kagel can go hang out with the PGs that are , according to your reckoning, afraid to fly with our dorks at their home site.
The video you posted was a great selection of the dorks, too. I saw Todd, Vrezh and last but not least, Andy Pryciack. Good job, you managed to pick the worst of the worst, didn't you?
Anyway, one last cheap shot: have fun at Elsinore tomorrow. At least you can't bring down TG dinner and maybe they'll take up your cause and share the fund-raiser.
The video you posted was a great selection of the dorks, too. I saw Todd, Vrezh and last but not least, Andy Pryciack. Good job, you managed to pick the worst of the worst, didn't you?
Anyway, one last cheap shot: have fun at Elsinore tomorrow. At least you can't bring down TG dinner and maybe they'll take up your cause and share the fund-raiser.
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Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Answers...
Yup. That's exactly how it happened. Check out the hanggliding.org topic where pilots began calling for Brad Hall to come clean with what he wrote to the City of San Diego:OP wrote:WTF! Are you serious? Did this really happen? What is that guys problem.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=7572
Brad never did come clean. Eventually we got Brad's letters from San Diego City Councilwoman Donna Frye herself.
Brad is entitled to his own opinions, but he should be up front when using his title as Regional Director. His sneaky back-door letters tell me that he just can't be trusted - period. If he can't be trusted at Torrey, then he can't be trusted at Sylmar or Crestline or anywhere.
The Torrey Hawks are about 195 pilots who recognize that we have been slowly losing Torrey Pines to the paragliding concession at that site. All they want is to be sure that hang gliding doesn't get forgotten at Torrey and that the sport of hang gliding always has its own distinct voice at that site. We are not against paragliding (I'm a paragliding pilot myself), and we just want to be sure that all pilots (of all wings) get fair treatment at Torrey.dhmartens wrote:On the other, other, other side we don't know who these Torry Hawks are. They could be a band of mischievous malevolent sky bikers destined to spread disarray. If we gave them a chance we might at least be able to find out though.
I second Rome's suggestion. Jerry Katz is not sneaky, and he'll tell you what he thinks (without any sugar coating!). Jerry was the first HG pilot to fly 100 miles and he lives in the greater LA area (where you don't currently have any local Directors). If you haven't voted yet, please cast your ballots for Jerry Katz and Rob Sporrer.Rome Dodson: wrote:MAKE TORRY H.G. FRIENDLY, VOTE FOR KATZ. ROME
The ballots have to be in to USHPA by around December 15th, so there's still about 2 weeks. Please send in your ballots for Jerry Katz and Rob Sporrer.jt wrote:Isn't this damn election over? When do they count the votes? Please, please, please!!! When someone knows the results, post them immediately! Maybe then the endless attacks and rationalizations will end and Torrey Pines can continue to be the HG unfriendly paragliding site that everyone has told me it is. I don't care! I don't need to fly a boring ridge site. It may be fine for tuning a LiteSpeed but after a few minutes, what's to do? Dodge RCs, sailplanes and jellyfish? What fun.
Someone please bury this thread in the file for people who have tunnel-vision. The election was for a regional director, not an HG booster for one cliff site. You want to ridge soar the beach? Go to Funston. A nice road trip and you air-junkies might be able to catch Plaskett on the beautiful ride home on PCH.
See you all at, mostly jelly-free, Kagel.
Also, there's a lot more at stake than Torrey. I've been working to make USHPA more open and accountable to all of our members. For example, I'd like our members to know how their Directors have voted on important and controversial issues. So I've suggested the "Accountability Amendment" which would help make our voting records more open and public. Jerry Katz has said he would support that. Brad Hall has opposed that. But as I've written above, the biggest issue is honesty. If Brad Hall will use his title as Regional Director when writing secret letters to the San Diego City Council, how do Sylmar pilots know what he's done to you? What if David Jebb tried to get control of Sylmar or Dockweiler? Would you know if Brad Hall had written secret letters to your City Council trying to make that happen? No. You wouldn't because Brad has demonstrated a history of back-door dealings with San Diego. He still hasn't published his correspondence with the Mayor's office and other agencies - despite repeated requests. "Brad Hall, I challenge you to post all of your correspondence with governmental organizations (including the Torrey Pines Soaring Council) so we'll all know how you've been conducting yourself in our name." I'll bet we don't get any answers from Brad. He'll either ignore the request or shoot back with a bunch of questions of his own. But he sure won't publish his back-door dealings for us to see.
Well said. Torrey is an important site, and so is Kagel. So the question isn't about one site or another. It's about having a director with the honesty and character to do the right thing and stand behind it. Brad Hall has done the wrong things and that's why he hasn't been willing to stand behind his actions (notice he runs away whenever I ask him direct questions). That's why he refused to publish what he had written to the City of San Diego, and that's why he still hasn't come clean with all of his back-stabbing letters. We should not be electing Directors who won't stand behind what they've done in our names!!jcflies wrote:... if you happen to live south of elsinore and north of valle, then what are you supposed to do? ridge soaring may be boring after a few passes, but good pilots (mind you, i ain't implying i'm one of 'em) can ALWAYS find ways to amuse themselves! besides, torrey is beautiful. airtime is airtime and sometimes you are willing to take what you can get.
That is one great quote!! I'd like to modify it slightly:jcflies wrote:"Always pay attention to what the ground is doing."--Mickey Sarraille
Bob Kuczewski wrote:"Always pay attention to what your representatives are doing in your name!!"
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
-
Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Just one more comment...
Earlier in this topic Brad Hall challenged me to answer his "40 questions"...
I've been following this situation very carefully for the last 3 years. I've been to every Torrey Pines Soaring Council meeting in those 3 years. I've been to every Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board meeting in those 3 years. I've attended 4 of the last 5 USHPA Board meetings. I've attended several other public meetings related to the Gliderport. I've seen how Brad Hall has conducted himself in all those situations, and I can tell you that he has backed Jebb's position in every case. David Beardslee can tell you the same thing. Please call David Beardslee if you doubt me.
So unless you really know the situation at Torrey and really know everything that Brad has done, I urge you to take the advice of those who've followed him closely and have seen what he's done. Please vote for Jerry Katz and Rob Sporrer in Region 3.
Earlier in this topic Brad Hall challenged me to answer his "40 questions"...
So I replied:Brad Hall wrote:By the way Bob, you were asked the "40 questions" about your club well over a year ago, and have not answered one. What are you afraid of?
Did Brad ever ask one of his "40 questions"? No. Instead he used the first excuse to duck out of the discussion:Bob Kuczewski wrote:Let's go Brad. What was your first question? The election will be over in December, so don't dawdle.
Rise to the challenge or slink away as you have in the past.
I know there are many people in the Sylmar area who may remember Brad Hall from the past. And from what I heard, he fought for fairness in the old days. But somewhere along the line, Brad ended up aligning himself with David Jebb and he supported whatever David Jebb did at Torrey. I'm sorry, but that's a fact that I can back up.Brad Hall wrote:Over and out.
I've been following this situation very carefully for the last 3 years. I've been to every Torrey Pines Soaring Council meeting in those 3 years. I've been to every Torrey Pines City Park Advisory Board meeting in those 3 years. I've attended 4 of the last 5 USHPA Board meetings. I've attended several other public meetings related to the Gliderport. I've seen how Brad Hall has conducted himself in all those situations, and I can tell you that he has backed Jebb's position in every case. David Beardslee can tell you the same thing. Please call David Beardslee if you doubt me.
So unless you really know the situation at Torrey and really know everything that Brad has done, I urge you to take the advice of those who've followed him closely and have seen what he's done. Please vote for Jerry Katz and Rob Sporrer in Region 3.
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Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski
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I'm sorry about all the long posts, and I'm sorry about all the muck. But I've seen Brad Hall do whatever Jebb wanted for over 2 years now. If I don't come to this forum to tell you about it, then how else will you know?
Also, if you don't like this topic, then please don't feel compelled to read it. There are plenty of other great topics on this forum. But if you want to contribute to the discussion, then please feel free to offer any facts or evidence to support your views. That's how we can inform more of our members and elect the best candidates.
Thanks.
Also, if you don't like this topic, then please don't feel compelled to read it. There are plenty of other great topics on this forum. But if you want to contribute to the discussion, then please feel free to offer any facts or evidence to support your views. That's how we can inform more of our members and elect the best candidates.
Thanks.
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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JT
I smell a very dead, very, very, well-beaten horse.
Not that you shouldn't continue Bob. I appreciate that you're an ardent Boy Scout (another friend's description) and that you are striving to right all wrongs, perceived or real. It just stopped being entertaining a while back, at least for me, except as I can goad another response out of someone. When we meet at last, I hope you'll bring Sancho Panza with you.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted the way you asked after your very first post. I think I should have waited until I heard from Brad. He sounds much more reasonable and others I respect support him. I hope I didn't make a big mistake. Jerry hasn't hasn't changed much in 35 years and I have never met you, Brad or Rob.
Thanks, Janyce. XOXO back at you. Hope we can fly this weekend.
Not that you shouldn't continue Bob. I appreciate that you're an ardent Boy Scout (another friend's description) and that you are striving to right all wrongs, perceived or real. It just stopped being entertaining a while back, at least for me, except as I can goad another response out of someone. When we meet at last, I hope you'll bring Sancho Panza with you.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted the way you asked after your very first post. I think I should have waited until I heard from Brad. He sounds much more reasonable and others I respect support him. I hope I didn't make a big mistake. Jerry hasn't hasn't changed much in 35 years and I have never met you, Brad or Rob.
Thanks, Janyce. XOXO back at you. Hope we can fly this weekend.
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Bob Kuczewski
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- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
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I hope you didn't make a big mistake either.jt wrote:I smell a very dead, very, very, well-beaten horse.
Not that you shouldn't continue Bob. I appreciate that you're an ardent Boy Scout (another friend's description) and that you are striving to right all wrongs, perceived or real. It just stopped being entertaining a while back, at least for me, except as I can goad another response out of someone. When we meet at last, I hope you'll bring Sancho Panza with you.
BTW, if it's any consolation, I voted the way you asked after your very first post. I think I should have waited until I heard from Brad. He sounds much more reasonable and others I respect support him. I hope I didn't make a big mistake. Jerry hasn't hasn't changed much in 35 years and I have never met you, Brad or Rob.
Thanks, Janyce. XOXO back at you. Hope we can fly this weekend.
Politics is always a gamble, and the hope is that the wisdom of many will add up to more wisdom than any of us have on our own. I don't know if anyone has proved that yet ... but it's a good theory.
I am sorry to have tortured this horse so far beyond its demise, but I'd rather be accused of doing too much than not enough. There are enough people doing not enough as it is, so Sancho and I will continue to take up the slack.
Good flying to you!
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
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Bob Kuczewski
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:39 am
- Location: San Diego
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P.S. ...
I should say right up front that I'm not too optimistic about Jerry's chances of winning. But even if he doesn't win, if he gets a significant number of votes, then that will at least demonstrate that there are pilots who want to see some changes at USHPA. I think that's healthy in itself since many Board members generally run unopposed, and it's good for them to get a wake-up call that there are things that USHPA can do better.
So every vote for Jerry is telling USHPA to pay closer attention to what our members want (like the Accountability Amendment).
I should say right up front that I'm not too optimistic about Jerry's chances of winning. But even if he doesn't win, if he gets a significant number of votes, then that will at least demonstrate that there are pilots who want to see some changes at USHPA. I think that's healthy in itself since many Board members generally run unopposed, and it's good for them to get a wake-up call that there are things that USHPA can do better.
So every vote for Jerry is telling USHPA to pay closer attention to what our members want (like the Accountability Amendment).
Join a National Hang Gliding Organization: US Hawks at ushawks.org
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.
View my rating at: USHGRS
Every human at every point in history has an opportunity to choose courage over cowardice. Look around and you'll find that opportunity in your own time.