Ok. Was it me, or did someone actually have the 'nerve' to loop their hang glider near the LZ and then even land outside of the 'coned' area near the houses?
There isn't supposed to be any acrobatics like that are there?
Allen
hang glider looped near LZ????
Moderator: Chip
Please note that Dino resigned from the club.
He was asked to come to a BOD meeting to show why he shouldn't be expelled. We were ready to listen. Instead, he sent a colorful letter to the BOD resigning from the club.
If you want details, feel free to ask me privately.
He had been violating the rules for a very long time, and we'd gone through the whole legitimate process as required. He had lots of chances.
Note that we've sent letters to him, inviting him to rejoin - He just had to promise (in writing) to follow the rules.
Also note, that as of the last time I checked, he's not allowed on our property. If he comes on, he is trespassing.
He was asked to come to a BOD meeting to show why he shouldn't be expelled. We were ready to listen. Instead, he sent a colorful letter to the BOD resigning from the club.
If you want details, feel free to ask me privately.
He had been violating the rules for a very long time, and we'd gone through the whole legitimate process as required. He had lots of chances.
Note that we've sent letters to him, inviting him to rejoin - He just had to promise (in writing) to follow the rules.
Also note, that as of the last time I checked, he's not allowed on our property. If he comes on, he is trespassing.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Dino Documentation
Several years ago I came across several letters/documentation buried somewhere deep in the Members Only section of the website. Interesting reading. SHGA bent over backwards for this guy. 
We don't own the launches. If someone takes him up, we can't stop him flying. Please don't take him up.
We don't own the wash. We don't own the land right next to the houses to the NW of the upper LZ. As long as he doesn't go on our property, we can do nothing.
BUT, if he does go on our property, he's trespassing. He's been warned about that. The police have been told that he's not welcome. I don't know the current status of the BOD's position on this, so check with a current BOD member.
Our property line goes down the middle of Gridley, and continues through the fence northeastward in a straight line. If he is NW of that line, he's not on our property. If he's SE of that line, he is on our property.
I've seen him land off of the property. I've seen him land on it and then "run" off of it right away. I've seen him land in the wash, then cross our property to go to the area NW of our property line into the area, some call Dino's Triangle.
We don't own the wash. We don't own the land right next to the houses to the NW of the upper LZ. As long as he doesn't go on our property, we can do nothing.
BUT, if he does go on our property, he's trespassing. He's been warned about that. The police have been told that he's not welcome. I don't know the current status of the BOD's position on this, so check with a current BOD member.
Our property line goes down the middle of Gridley, and continues through the fence northeastward in a straight line. If he is NW of that line, he's not on our property. If he's SE of that line, he is on our property.
I've seen him land off of the property. I've seen him land on it and then "run" off of it right away. I've seen him land in the wash, then cross our property to go to the area NW of our property line into the area, some call Dino's Triangle.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Shooting Range
A few years ago a person by the name of Joe Lee landing in the Shooting Range - I believe he was "suspended" from the club for a few months. He flew for a few more months (Crestline/Elsinore???) and I think gave up the sport.
FAR 103.
No FAA rule about aerobatics over houses. Or at all, for that matter. One could look at the wording and argue that flying over houses was a no-no. It is deliberately vague:
"Sec. 103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons."
What constitutes a congested area? How many people constitutes an "open air assembly"? Exactly how much "over" do you have to be? Directly? Within 5 degrees? 10? You can't really be over too many people at once, yes? The glider isn't all that large.
And is buzzing the launch or LZ, flying over an "open air assembly of persons"?
Seriously, I think that the FAA is deliberately leaving this vague so that they can ignore our normal operations, yet retain the ability to slap someone upside the head if they do something stupid, like fly over the Rose-Bowl, or a Rock-Concert, or over downtown Phoenix. You get the idea.
But if they wanted to, I'd bet that flying over the houses on either side of our LZ could be targeted by them. So let's just keep our noses clean, and try not to give them a reason to care. They do, after all, have lots of other things to do. They'd just as soon spend as little effort on us as possible. Let's make that easy for them!
BTW, the reasoning behind the SHGA Aerobatics Rule is that a chute deployment in front of the bridge will probably drift the pilot into the houses to our West. Those are the very folks that we worked so hard to appease after they tried to get hang gliding banned in LA. The folks farther away weren't part of that issue...
And note that no lesser personage than that Aerobatic Champion John Heiney has said: "If you do aerobatics long enough, you will throw your chute."
No FAA rule about aerobatics over houses. Or at all, for that matter. One could look at the wording and argue that flying over houses was a no-no. It is deliberately vague:
"Sec. 103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons."
What constitutes a congested area? How many people constitutes an "open air assembly"? Exactly how much "over" do you have to be? Directly? Within 5 degrees? 10? You can't really be over too many people at once, yes? The glider isn't all that large.
And is buzzing the launch or LZ, flying over an "open air assembly of persons"?Seriously, I think that the FAA is deliberately leaving this vague so that they can ignore our normal operations, yet retain the ability to slap someone upside the head if they do something stupid, like fly over the Rose-Bowl, or a Rock-Concert, or over downtown Phoenix. You get the idea.
But if they wanted to, I'd bet that flying over the houses on either side of our LZ could be targeted by them. So let's just keep our noses clean, and try not to give them a reason to care. They do, after all, have lots of other things to do. They'd just as soon spend as little effort on us as possible. Let's make that easy for them!
BTW, the reasoning behind the SHGA Aerobatics Rule is that a chute deployment in front of the bridge will probably drift the pilot into the houses to our West. Those are the very folks that we worked so hard to appease after they tried to get hang gliding banned in LA. The folks farther away weren't part of that issue...
And note that no lesser personage than that Aerobatic Champion John Heiney has said: "If you do aerobatics long enough, you will throw your chute."
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
Janyce,
You can choose to side with Dino if you like, but don't you think it's a little unreasonable to try to silence people that have a genuine interest in protecting the site that you fly at, the only one in Los Angeles that's left. What's it matter that Allen doesn't fly anymore? Silence him? That surprises me coming from a teacher of children.
I like Dino too, but I'm not going to try to defend his selfish actions by saying that he's skilled enough to violate an agreement that the city and the FAA themselves asked us to put into place. They did this in return for them not banning hang gliding in all of Los Angeles.
There is no better adjective to describe Dino's actions than the one I used above; selfish. He cares little about hang gliding. He cares only about his hang gliding, and not yours or mine. If he cared about the rest of us, he would have respected the club's rules in the past and would do so in the future.
I suspect you'll choose to focus on his talents instead, but that is just a smokescreen, hiding the fact that he is indeed endangering our future flying privileges. The only thing worthy of discussion is the magnitude of the risk, and the consequences of a mishap.
Far better pilots than Dino have busted up their gliders and crashed uncontrollably into the nearby terrain while performing aerobatic maneuvers on aircraft that aren't designed for it.
Pilots that have only been in the club for a few years may not know the history of problems associated with the north end of our flight park and the adjacent neighbors. Let me start with the guy that put his glider into the power lines above the fence, knocking them into the neighbors swimming pool, and "threatening the lives of her children, had they been in the pool". Those were her words, not mine.
Next let's talk about the 28 year old pilot/medical student that got hung up in the power lines and caught on fire, sustaining 3rd degree burns over 50% of his body. He later died. I remember attending the public hearing, and trying to defend against the plea made to the City Administrative Officer by one home owner. She said..... "We went from backyard to backyard, linking garden hoses together to make one long enough; all the while that young man hung up there, on fire, screaming for help. We never want our children to see something like that again!"
Yes, one of our pilots knocked down the block wall there in the past. And I have had more than one conversation with these neighbors about their discomfort having seen one of our pilots lying dead, just outside the gate to their back yard.
I won't go on, but I think it does help to understand the impact we have in this residential neighborhood. We do a pretty good job, but we have enough skeletons in the closet that we need to stay vigilant. And that won't happen unless we have discussions like this.
Dino's a big boy. He makes his bed and he ought to be able to sleep in it without people making excuses for his endangering our site.
In the past, it has been the SHGA Board of Director's decision to ignore Dino as long as he doesn't trespass onto the club's property. I suspect that will continue to be the case in the future. Apparently this works ok for Dino and apparently the board agrees with you that the risks to the club are limited enough to leave him alone. I happen to agree with this position, but I won't defend him or try to silence any discussions about his actions.
So let me encourage pilots to openly talk about things like this; to be judgmental, to express their concerns, civilly. There's a reason that Kagel has survived as long as it has, and that reason is primarily due to our pilots willingness to establish rules, regulations, safety procedures, and behaviors that are responsible, not irresponsible.
So instead of attacking Allen for expressing his views, why not make him the hero. Make him the guy we respect and stick up for. Of course, you may not agree, but, in my opinion, making guys like Dino look like heroes, puts us on the short road to end up like your buddies at Elsinore; a vanishing species.
Respectfully,
Joe
You can choose to side with Dino if you like, but don't you think it's a little unreasonable to try to silence people that have a genuine interest in protecting the site that you fly at, the only one in Los Angeles that's left. What's it matter that Allen doesn't fly anymore? Silence him? That surprises me coming from a teacher of children.
I like Dino too, but I'm not going to try to defend his selfish actions by saying that he's skilled enough to violate an agreement that the city and the FAA themselves asked us to put into place. They did this in return for them not banning hang gliding in all of Los Angeles.
There is no better adjective to describe Dino's actions than the one I used above; selfish. He cares little about hang gliding. He cares only about his hang gliding, and not yours or mine. If he cared about the rest of us, he would have respected the club's rules in the past and would do so in the future.
I suspect you'll choose to focus on his talents instead, but that is just a smokescreen, hiding the fact that he is indeed endangering our future flying privileges. The only thing worthy of discussion is the magnitude of the risk, and the consequences of a mishap.
Far better pilots than Dino have busted up their gliders and crashed uncontrollably into the nearby terrain while performing aerobatic maneuvers on aircraft that aren't designed for it.
Pilots that have only been in the club for a few years may not know the history of problems associated with the north end of our flight park and the adjacent neighbors. Let me start with the guy that put his glider into the power lines above the fence, knocking them into the neighbors swimming pool, and "threatening the lives of her children, had they been in the pool". Those were her words, not mine.
Next let's talk about the 28 year old pilot/medical student that got hung up in the power lines and caught on fire, sustaining 3rd degree burns over 50% of his body. He later died. I remember attending the public hearing, and trying to defend against the plea made to the City Administrative Officer by one home owner. She said..... "We went from backyard to backyard, linking garden hoses together to make one long enough; all the while that young man hung up there, on fire, screaming for help. We never want our children to see something like that again!"
Yes, one of our pilots knocked down the block wall there in the past. And I have had more than one conversation with these neighbors about their discomfort having seen one of our pilots lying dead, just outside the gate to their back yard.
I won't go on, but I think it does help to understand the impact we have in this residential neighborhood. We do a pretty good job, but we have enough skeletons in the closet that we need to stay vigilant. And that won't happen unless we have discussions like this.
Dino's a big boy. He makes his bed and he ought to be able to sleep in it without people making excuses for his endangering our site.
In the past, it has been the SHGA Board of Director's decision to ignore Dino as long as he doesn't trespass onto the club's property. I suspect that will continue to be the case in the future. Apparently this works ok for Dino and apparently the board agrees with you that the risks to the club are limited enough to leave him alone. I happen to agree with this position, but I won't defend him or try to silence any discussions about his actions.
So let me encourage pilots to openly talk about things like this; to be judgmental, to express their concerns, civilly. There's a reason that Kagel has survived as long as it has, and that reason is primarily due to our pilots willingness to establish rules, regulations, safety procedures, and behaviors that are responsible, not irresponsible.
So instead of attacking Allen for expressing his views, why not make him the hero. Make him the guy we respect and stick up for. Of course, you may not agree, but, in my opinion, making guys like Dino look like heroes, puts us on the short road to end up like your buddies at Elsinore; a vanishing species.
Respectfully,
Joe
Safety is a book, not a word
Michael Robertson
Michael Robertson
Janyce,jcflies wrote:politics aside, dino loops better than most pilots thermal. no offense, but why stir up a bunch of sh** if you DON'T fly anymore? and if you flew for as long as you did, then you already KNOW about the dino situation! leave dino alone! he's not affiliated with US, doesn't land in our l/z or fly from kagel. if he's willing to hike his glider down to towers, then so be it. you no longer care about flying; he still DOES!
his DRIVER gave him a ride to launch! WTF? he is certainly strong enough to hike!
don't mean to be rude but this is no different that the whole torrey controversy! BOB! BOB! can you comment here?
(Deleted what I had said after reading Joe's post. Joe said everything perfectly)
Allen
P.S. - Oh yea, I do care about flying still; more than you realize. Flying has always been a life long dream of mine, but with certain circumstances in my life, I feel that presently it isn't safe for me to be flying around others in the air. I'm not worried about my safety as much as I am about the safety of others in the air if I should be flying at the present.
oh, well then, let's get online, in a forum which more clubs than just ours read, and say any negative thing that happens to pop into our heads about someone who doesn't even KNOW we are posting this stuff!
and let's not stop there. let's bash the people from other flying sites, in other clubs, while we're at it!
plus, we are a HANG GLIDING CLUB taking the public stance of chastising a fellow PILOT for FLYING!
do we really want this rep? (Rhetorical!)
and let's not stop there. let's bash the people from other flying sites, in other clubs, while we're at it!
plus, we are a HANG GLIDING CLUB taking the public stance of chastising a fellow PILOT for FLYING!
do we really want this rep? (Rhetorical!)
Last edited by jcflies on Mon May 03, 2010 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
janyce
"You HAVE to make it..."
"You HAVE to make it..."
"Probably out of line"??????????jcflies wrote:my point was, WHY STIR UP A BUNCH OF S***? this could so easily turn into an interminable argument--just like TORREY. dino's not here to defend himself. i try to teach little kids to not publicly discuss someone, in a negative manner, who is not present to defend himself. it's too easy, and it's wrong--ESPECIALLY in a public forum on the INTERNET! i saw this turning into that. the comments on whether or not allen flies WERE probably out of line and not germane; for that i apologize. but if we want to bitch about dino, why not talk to him directly?
Allen