It started Sunday morning, I called Don to see if he lets me borrow his lightsport which he didn't opposed to let me have it,after setting up the glider on launch I did a preflight twice, I have to admit I was nervous to fly a more performance glider and on top of it a borrowed glider, nevertheless I was anxious to get into the air. Standing on launch the conditioning wear light so I pulled in the bar to have a strong launch the glider picked up speed rapidly soon as I was airborne I let the bar out
the glider started to climb fast I pulled the bar back to slow then climb at the same time I initialized a right turn that's when my trouble started, the glider started to oscillate first thing I did I looked at my bar position and I solidly believed that I was just little bit over the trim speed so my full concentration went to stop that oscillation and completely ignoring the bar PRESSURE.With each correction that oscillation got worse and with each rotation that hillside was coming closer and closer, so now I was also trying to get away from the hill. Later on in the LZ one of the pilots who was flying above me told me that he saw the underside of my borrowed glider. On one of them rotation I got very close to hillside that when I realized I'm going way too fast so I started to letting the bar out slowly I didn't want to let the bar out to fast since I didn't know how the glider going to response, at the same time I hear on the radio of faint voice saying Max go to trim slow the glider down and as I was slowing down Joe voice became more clearer and louder, and that oscillation stop quickly, soon as I was flying straight I let go off the bar completely to see
where the trim is I was really surprised how far the bar was in front of me. So now I'm below the Ridge above the volcano and to scaret
to land the glider since I don't know how the glider behaves, luckily I caught a thermal what got me above launch and I started to learn
how the glider behaves. My trouble were not over yet as I'm trying to zip up my harness the zipper line was twisted around the loop and I couldn't pull on it at the same time my Camelback was jammed between my helmet and a harness I couldn't get my head completely upright, so I try to compensate by adjusting the angle of my harness but I couldn't get the line to loosen up, I'm thinking to myself what the hell else can go wrong, half way through the flight I was able to untangle my zipper line and close my harness. Towards the end of my flight I was flying the glider in the upright position and practicing my landing approaches at the same time I was waiting for the airspace above the Lz to clear up as soon as the last glider landed I was flying towards the staging area, I was still nervous lending the glider so I only concentrated on the numbers and the right angle and didn't pay any attention to my surroundings which was another mistake, as I was on my base lag ready to turn on to final another glider flew right in front of me I had no choice but lining up right behind him I caught a small wake of the glider which put me just little bit quicker to the ground I couldn't run fast enough to run out the landing, so I did a belly flop and scrape up my knees and broke the radio but I survived . Conclusion I was lucky not hitting that hillside but even more not hitting another glider that would have been really hard for me to overcome. Oscillation is nothing new to me it happened to me before and I knew exactly how to stop it, so for a pilot with my experience having such a major BRAIN FART and do so many mistakes in one flight to me it's an excusable unacceptable and dangerous, so for all those reasons I have no choice but grounding myself I don't know if I going to fly again. I will seek advice from Joe Greblo before making my final decision. Flying was always rewarding and fun to me and I was able to unwind from a stressful job but now I realized it is also a serious business and should not be taken lightly. Solution to my mistakes, never fly a new glider by muscle memory or bar position,make sure when flying a new glider keep more distance away from the hill and other gliders, pre-fly your harness make sure all the zipper are working in the lines are not tangled up, if something doesn't feel right taking your time and doublcheck everything before launching. I'm sure I missed something again so I encourage everybody to post your comments or help full hints. I hope that helps other pilots who read this not to do the same mistakes and learn something from it.
OSCILLATION FROM HELL
OSCILLATION FROM HELL
Smile now Cry later
MAX
MAX
PIO's
If it were me ,I would take the " new to me" glider down a training hill and trim it out check for turns & get a feel for it before launching a mountain, that is what I do with mine any time I replace tubes or wires or have a hard landing which has been quit a bit lately. But I wouldn't throw it all away over a bad flight get back on the Falcon. they are fun to fly and you fly yours well. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3iWM34KRM[/youtube] This was my First experience with PIO's on a New glider.I laugh about it now but I really thought I was going to die . 
Allen,abinder wrote: Don't think that he'll want to test fly a T2C since he had problems with the Litesport which is a 'king-posted' glider and should be much easier to fly than a T2C.
Allen
When I purchased the Litesport I had it inspected by Windsports and then Phil Bloom test flew it for me. His comment was essentially that the Litesport is as challenging (difficult) to fly as a Litespeed S. My personal experience is that the Litesport is easier in the air but more difficult to land.
IMHO , I think it would be a mistake to continue on to a Litesport or a T2 at this time . PIO's have a way of Scaring the crap out of you, and undermining your confidence levels to the point of making you seriously question your flying abilities. he needs to step back think it all through & rebuild his confidence before continuing on. I would hate to see Max scare himself out of the sport,.. and after what he just went through it could happen.
Last edited by OSCAR on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i don't think the issue was really one of kingpost vs. topless so much as it was a difference in position of the control frames between Moyes and Willswing gliders, and, as a result, "trim" being in a different place relative to the pilot's body position. I think that if Max were testing a U2 or T2, he wouldn't have PIO'd. I remember Hungary Joe telling me, before I flew the Moyes XT, to look at the difference in the angle of the two control frames.
Anyway, Max, it seems like you learned that even YOU, on the right day and under the right circumstances, can mess up. Welcome to hang gliding! Hope to see you flying again soon!
All the best!
Anyway, Max, it seems like you learned that even YOU, on the right day and under the right circumstances, can mess up. Welcome to hang gliding! Hope to see you flying again soon!
All the best!
janyce
"You HAVE to make it..."
"You HAVE to make it..."
Thanks for the info Don.Don wrote:Allen,abinder wrote: Don't think that he'll want to test fly a T2C since he had problems with the Litesport which is a 'king-posted' glider and should be much easier to fly than a T2C.
Allen
When I purchased the Litesport I had it inspected by Windsports and then Phil Bloom test flew it for me. His comment was essentially that the Litesport is as challenging (difficult) to fly as a Litespeed S. My personal experience is that the Litesport is easier in the air but more difficult to land.
Allen
Max:
One of the characteristics of the LiteSport is that it will PIO pretty severely with the VG out and the bar pulled in hard. That appears to be what happened here. The natural bar position is pretty far out in front. With the VG pulled in the glider will fly fast in a straight line quite well, but that is not the case with VG off.
The one thing to remember is that the glider probably flies better than you (or I) do. So when it's behaving badly, let the bar go. That is, let the bar go to its natural trim position and the glider will stop whatever it's doing and start behaving itself.
Another thing to remember is that, on the LiteSport, the stall break is pretty severe with the VG pulled in. Thus, pulling in the VG, flying fast and then hitting a thermal, forgetting the VG is on, rolling into the thermal (if you can with VG on hard), and pushing out can have interesting consequences.
The LiteSport's landing behavior, for me, is not significantly different than a LiteSpeed. At low speeds it glides right with the LiteSpeed and thus setting up a landing requires all the same skills. However, I do find that, given a really strong flare, it will "parachute" significantly farther without dropping the nose although this is not recommended.
Bottom line, the real market for the LiteSport is pretty narrow. I like it because it has excellent pitch stability, is very strong and mine is paid for. However, in terms of handling, it is essentially no different than a LiteSpeed to all intents and purposes. Someone considering this glider should realize that it does not fly very differently than any of the topless gliders and the skill set required is the same. It is NOT a true intermediate glider.
Hope this helps,
Mike
One of the characteristics of the LiteSport is that it will PIO pretty severely with the VG out and the bar pulled in hard. That appears to be what happened here. The natural bar position is pretty far out in front. With the VG pulled in the glider will fly fast in a straight line quite well, but that is not the case with VG off.
The one thing to remember is that the glider probably flies better than you (or I) do. So when it's behaving badly, let the bar go. That is, let the bar go to its natural trim position and the glider will stop whatever it's doing and start behaving itself.
Another thing to remember is that, on the LiteSport, the stall break is pretty severe with the VG pulled in. Thus, pulling in the VG, flying fast and then hitting a thermal, forgetting the VG is on, rolling into the thermal (if you can with VG on hard), and pushing out can have interesting consequences.
The LiteSport's landing behavior, for me, is not significantly different than a LiteSpeed. At low speeds it glides right with the LiteSpeed and thus setting up a landing requires all the same skills. However, I do find that, given a really strong flare, it will "parachute" significantly farther without dropping the nose although this is not recommended.
Bottom line, the real market for the LiteSport is pretty narrow. I like it because it has excellent pitch stability, is very strong and mine is paid for. However, in terms of handling, it is essentially no different than a LiteSpeed to all intents and purposes. Someone considering this glider should realize that it does not fly very differently than any of the topless gliders and the skill set required is the same. It is NOT a true intermediate glider.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Max - May I suggest that you demo the U2 that Wills Wing is leaving w/ Greblo for a week. It's nearly as easy to fly and easier to land than a Sport 2 w/ quasi-T2 performance. It may give you renewed confidence. Then you can ask Don to try his Litesport again to compare.max wrote:Thanks Mike that is really helpful information
Cheers, Jonathan