Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

For those of you who don't read my drivel on hanggliding.org, I'll just paste in my recent follies here:

I had a wonderful 2 1/2 hour flight at Lake Elsinore on Saturday and was determined to land in Everyday Mike's new LZ. I watched another pilot (Mike Blakely) land while I was boating around 2,500' over him. He barely squeezed in using the approach that he took. I mistakenly thought the glider was a topless and didn't realize it was Mike B on Sport 2 135 or I would have taken a different approach pattern. After burning off some altitude, I did two full DBF patterns from high overhead in order to get my mind trained to squeeze in.

I'd thought about landing along the long uphill line but the wind 2-400' aloft was blowing uphill pretty good at that time and I couldn't see what the wind was on the surface because there were so many spectators from Mike's neighborhood. So, I failed to notice Everyday Mike tossing dirt into the air and motioning me for the surface wind. By the time I staged, I was committed to taking the same short line into what I thought was the surface wind direction.

I lined everything up just right and when I came out of my base leg I doing 36 MPH ground speed. I realized I was burning up space fast. I even dragged my boots in the dirt briefly but it didn't accomplish anything. There's a 3' berm along the road side of this field and I could see that if I did a full flare I would drop down on the back side. Fearing that I might injure an ankle if I did that I just half-flared out on the downtubes and stumbled then belly landed in the soft dirt a few feet beyond the berm. Mike came running over all excited and I handed him my camera and had him shoot a little video for our viewing pleasure.

Later, Bill Soderquist came in for a landing while it was blowing downhill and landed upslope. I got some nice video of that too and interviewed him afterwards to get the rundown on the safest approach to Everyday Mike/s LZ. I'll upload that video tonight.

Without further adieu-doo.......here is my Dog Poop Landing video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhL7VvDgOPs[/youtube]

Here's Bill landing the correct way:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t1exTgMhuM[/youtube]

great vid of bill. he's such a pro! nice to see him again. thanks for publishing this!

you know, when i posted, i had only watched bill's vid. when i went back and saw yours i was a little disheartened...
it's occurred to me that your landing is more or less analogous to overshooting OUR l/z entirely, and landing in front of the houses! if you didn't injure yourself or die, it might be in the best interest of the pilots who actually LIVE there, to not call attention to yourself and just get away from the houses asap. (obviously, if you are injured and have no choice, it's different.) l/zs in elsinore are a bit of a commodity these days and we owe it to everyone there to help preserve whatever they've got!

just a thought,

jcflies wrote:..............your landing is more or less analogous to overshooting OUR l/z entirely.............

Actually, I landed in the LZ which is bounded by the sandbags. The problem was the berm around the perimeter. The direction I landed is less than 1/3 the length of the Sylmar LZ. The prudent direction is uphill/crosswind. I was fooled by the 15 MPH wind from the NE at 300' AGL yet the wind in the LZ was 2MPH from the NW. It was a catabatic airflow on the surface. This is nothing even remotely like the situation at Sylmar, but thank you for your concern.

I was reluctant to flare hard and possibly twist an ankle on the far side of the berm so I opted to float over the berm and try to run it out but I stumbled. I've seen much worse by better pilots at heavily controlled sites. I plan to land at Mike's again but uphill next time.

NMERider wrote:

jcflies wrote:..............your landing is more or less analogous to overshooting OUR l/z entirely.............

Actually, I landed in the LZ which is bounded by the sandbags. The problem was the berm around the perimeter. The direction I landed is less than 1/3 the length of the Sylmar LZ. The prudent direction is uphill/crosswind. I was fooled by the 15 MPH wind from the NE at 300' AGL yet the wind in the LZ was 2MPH from the NW. It was a catabatic airflow on the surface. This is nothing even remotely like the situation at Sylmar, but thank you for your concern.

I was reluctant to flare hard and possibly twist an ankle on the far side of the berm so I opted to float over the berm and try to run it out but I stumbled. I've seen much worse by better pilots at heavily controlled sites. I plan to land at Mike's again but uphill next time.

This catabatic flow only on the surface does happen in lots of places, though. Ave S, Ave L come to mind. I've even seen it at Kagel, but not often. I once landed at Ave S, going into the wind and uphill (back towards the mountain.) There were still folks soaring above launch!

NMERider wrote:

jcflies wrote:..............your landing is more or less analogous to overshooting OUR l/z entirely.............

Actually, I landed in the LZ which is bounded by the sandbags. The problem was the berm around the perimeter. The direction I landed is less than 1/3 the length of the Sylmar LZ. The prudent direction is uphill/crosswind. I was fooled by the 15 MPH wind from the NE at 300' AGL yet the wind in the LZ was 2MPH from the NW. It was a catabatic airflow on the surface. This is nothing even remotely like the situation at Sylmar, but thank you for your concern.

I was reluctant to flare hard and possibly twist an ankle on the far side of the berm so I opted to float over the berm and try to run it out but I stumbled. I've seen much worse by better pilots at heavily controlled sites. I plan to land at Mike's again but uphill next time.

NME, I think Janyce's critique was not so much directed at your landing technique but more towards the behavior exhibited post landing.

Now, I'm not in the E-Team and have never flown there and can thus only speak as an outsider looking in, but I would think (and I think this is the point Janyce was making as well) that the last thing a club that is going through legal battles to preserve their existence needs is attention drawn to recklessness at the facilities (owned by others) that they use.

You may have had to land the way you did for whatever reasons, and I can't really argue one way or the other about that. But the fact is you did go to the edge of the LZ and partially into "don't-land-here" territory. The responsible thing to do is not linger around and laugh at how crazy the landing was, but to pick up the glider and get it up onto the LZ.

jwjanda wrote:.........The responsible thing to do is not linger around and laugh at how crazy the landing was, but to pick up the glider and get it up onto the LZ.

The point has been made and noted.

For the record, I'd never pull a video stunt like that at Sylmar. Mike's LZ is a special place tucked away in the middle of a semi-rural neighborhood where the mood of the people is nothing like the litigious, hyper-frenetic ethos of LA County. In other words, I knew it wasn't a problem and also Mike would have dragged me out of there pronto. Listen carefully to Bill's statements in his video as he describes how did the same thing in a different direction his first time there and nearly overflew Mike's LZ as well.

From the altitude you guys had, you could have flown out to the airport and landed on the sailplane runway. But that would have been dull, I guess. I don't think it was catabatic. Those 60ft tall trees that surround that LZ make a good rotor. In any amount of wind, it's going to be opposite on the ground. Anyway, my point is, just go land where it's easy, drink some beer, and fly another day.

John Kerry wrote:..........my point is, just go land where it's easy, drink some beer, and fly another day.

Heck, I could have crossed the lake and landed anywhere, it was so buoyant. I plan on flying X-C in the future and may be making landings in tighter places where I have even less certainty. This was a wake up call to get my skills nailed down solid. Today's landing at Andy Jackson was my best ever. As Ron Wiener told me, "It's always better to land in the first 1/3 of the LZ than in the middle" or words to that effect (in reference to squeezing it in). No one is immune to errors. Those who can laugh at themselves and their own trivial foibles are the lucky ones. That was my point in broadcasting that video.

jwjanda wrote:Now, I'm not in the E-Team and have never flown there

QFT

Fun Vid, Jonathan.

http://www.gigapan.org/viewGigapan.php?id=12468

I asked Everyday which trees to plow into on an overshoot he said the maple trees that border his house.

The LZ, according to Everyday, is owned by some trust that paid him a few grand to clear it (cost him more). We have no easement or permanent rights, but they are cool with the info on the back of a USHPA card being good 'nuf

hey jonathan,
just read abt. yr. awesome flight at crestline! i love how you fly EVERYWHERE!!! can't wait to see you in the air at all these sites! sorry if my comment was overly fierce--i just love elsinore SO MUCH!!! it's my favorite sc site--in terms of the view, the loopy aeronauts, the old school feel, etc.
i'm probably unnecessarily overly--protective.
cheers!

jcflies wrote:..........i'm probably unnecessarily overly--protective.
cheers!

JC - No need to worry. After two tragedies in our humble LZ this summer, and not counting other events that might not be considered too neighborly, it's easy for anyone's alarm to go off when something resembling an offense is posted where the whole world can see it. As it is, good sites are few and far between and always at risk.

I have started adding links to HG lessons in my YouTube video 'Other Information' on each video. I may add a short text message to the end of each new video directing interested viewers to the links in the Other Info section or someting like that. Our biggest threat is attrition. And lately there's been a spate of that just due to natural causes since H.G. may stand for High on Geritol!

So, shall I take my T2 for its first flight at Elsinore Saturday? It's a well flown glider, just new to me.

Cheers, Jonathan

i'd say take it wherever conditions are most favorable and you feel most comfortable landing!

jcflies wrote:i'd say take it wherever conditions are most favorable and you feel most comfortable landing!

Honestly, I was thinking of spending an afternoon at Dockweiller with it, before I go anywhere else other than Marshall on a smooth day.

NMERider wrote:Honestly, I was thinking of spending an afternoon at Dockweiller with it, before I go anywhere else other than Marshall on a smooth day.

Definitely sounds like a good idea since it doesn't have a kingpost and is much different than a Sport 2. I'm sure that Joe Greblo would agree.

abinder wrote:

NMERider wrote:Honestly, I was thinking of spending an afternoon at Dockweiller with it, before I go anywhere else other than Marshall on a smooth day.

Definitely sounds like a good idea since it doesn't have a kingpost and is much different than a Sport 2. I'm sure that Joe Greblo would agree.

Since Elsinore was smooth yesterday, I took my T2 144 there for my initial flights. The only problem I had was that somebody erected a stiff and heavy wind sock at the SW corner of the LZ that was pointing the wrong direction since it needed at least a 6-7MPH breeze to indicate correctly. As a result I failed to notice the streamer at the opposite end which showed that I was going to be landing in a 4-5 MPH tailwind. The results were pretty harmless as you'll see in the video. My second landing was in nil wind and I chose to run it out rather than attempting a full flare because the glider is so darned zoomy. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPtwcpPnTr4[/youtube]

More details on the CSS forum: http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/20081129/1803

New nickname for NME 'The Zoomer'

eteamjack wrote:New nickname for NME 'The Zoomer'

My new nickname should be "Downwind Dietch" since I have a propensity for landing with the wind and the devil behind me.

Wolfgang Siess is the zoomer............

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0aPubhci8[/youtube]