h2o for lawn
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Rome Dodson
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:42 am
h2o for lawn
I HEAR PEOPLE ARE BITCHING ABOUT THE WATER BILL, IF WE CAN WASTE $40,000 to $60,000 ON A GAZIBO WE DON'T REALLY NEED, THE LEAST WE CAN DO IS HAVE A NICE LAWN! MAYBE WE CAN GET A GRANT FROM THE FOUNDATION FOR FREE FLIGHT ,TO PAY OUR WATER BILL!!!!! ROME
Re: h2o for lawn
Gotta love your reasoning Rome!!!DeadEye wrote:I HEAR PEOPLE ARE BITCHING ABOUT THE WATER BILL, IF WE CAN WASTE $40,000 to $60,000 ON A GAZIBO WE DON'T REALLY NEED, THE LEAST WE CAN DO IS HAVE A NICE LAWN! MAYBE WE CAN GET A GRANT FROM THE FOUNDATION FOR FREE FLIGHT ,TO PAY OUR WATER BILL!!!!! ROME
What you said makes sense to me!!!!
Allen
If anyone wants to know who is in charge of water, it's me. So please direct all bitching my way. I am using what the lawn needs, no less but also no more. It costs what it costs, and in my opinion is worth it.
The newly planted areas are showing growth as of today. I removed the stakes with the white flags today because the lawn is being mowed tomorrow morning. Please try not to walk on the newly planted areas.
I have purchased more seed and grass planting mix and will replant some additional area when the heat breaks next week. I will again place the white flags to mark the areas.
The newly planted areas are showing growth as of today. I removed the stakes with the white flags today because the lawn is being mowed tomorrow morning. Please try not to walk on the newly planted areas.
I have purchased more seed and grass planting mix and will replant some additional area when the heat breaks next week. I will again place the white flags to mark the areas.
Actually Rob, no one should really be angry about it. I'm sure that with a decent lawn there in the LZ, it will help keep the 'ground temp' down during the summer time. Much less heat will be given off by grass than is given off by dirt/grass/weeds combo.BudRob wrote:If anyone wants to know who is in charge of water, it's me. So please direct all bitching my way. I am using what the lawn needs, no less but also no more. It costs what it costs, and in my opinion is worth it.
The newly planted areas are showing growth as of today. I removed the stakes with the white flags today because the lawn is being mowed tomorrow morning. Please try not to walk on the newly planted areas.
I have purchased more seed and grass planting mix and will replant some additional area when the heat breaks next week. I will again place the white flags to mark the areas.
Even though I'm not hang gliding any more, keep up the good work Rob.
Allen
Gee Rome, when a large majority of club members vote to have a nice new gazebo built and you're not one who voted for it, you start crying foul. Sounds like you don't really want it, but perhaps most of us feel that we do.
Perhaps it will also better establish our club as a worthwhile organization in our town and in our neighborhood. In my view, the sooner we tear down what the city councilman's aid called an old "vegetable stand", the better.
If I remember correctly, you objected to the club putting in the grass, and you objected to the club putting in the shade trees. What is it that you haven't objected to. Oh yeah, I remember, it was the wood chips that burned for weeks.
5 years from now, when we're all enjoying the new gazebo, don't forget to remind everyone that you were against it.
Keep that grass green Rob! no matter what it takes.
joe
Perhaps it will also better establish our club as a worthwhile organization in our town and in our neighborhood. In my view, the sooner we tear down what the city councilman's aid called an old "vegetable stand", the better.
If I remember correctly, you objected to the club putting in the grass, and you objected to the club putting in the shade trees. What is it that you haven't objected to. Oh yeah, I remember, it was the wood chips that burned for weeks.
5 years from now, when we're all enjoying the new gazebo, don't forget to remind everyone that you were against it.
Keep that grass green Rob! no matter what it takes.
joe
Things in my life these days don't allow me to fly as much as I should to be safe with others in the air. I'm not worried about myself, I just don't want to put other people in harms way if I don't react as quickly as I should if a bizarre incident should occur.jcflies wrote:hey allen, why'd you stop flying, anyway? miss seeing you excited about your fights with vrezh!
I definitely do miss flying with Vrezh; I learned a lot from him. Phil and Ron also helped me a lot. I'll be out there from time to time on my other 'flying' machine (my Busa) to see everyone.
Allen
Many moons ago, when I was on the BOD, I talked to a seriously good landscape gardener (who also is an ex-HG pilot) about our LZ and water. He said something like this (I'm paraphrasing from several-year-old memory):
"If you can get another 6 inches of real soil with lots of organics in it, you could cut your water bill in half, or have grass on twice as much area for the same price. The problem is that you haven't really got any soil and the water either drains right through (in some spots) or pools and evaporates (in others.) If you had real soil with real organics and some airspace in it, you'd hold the water, and the plants would get more of it. Thus you'd need less. Also, if there is deeper soil, you get deeper roots. A larger percentage of the plant would be below ground, and therefore would have a reservoir of water, food, etc to draw on in hot/dry weather."
He also said that it would cost a fortune to redo the grass from scratch with the right kind, the right piping, the right everything. (I cannot recall the numbers he gave me, but they were huge.) His suggestion was to spread compost on it every month or two for the next few years. We'd gradually get our 6 inches that way. Of course, we'd have to raise the sprinklers a few times along the way.
He had one other comment about the water. He said that we were solving our bad soil problem with water. That works to some degree, but is not as cost effective as getting better soil. At least in the long run.
I've got no personal opinion about this, I'm just passing along the information from someone who should know. Someone who had no other agenda and actually cared about us to some extent.
Oh yea, I forgot to mention: "Rob Rocks!"
"If you can get another 6 inches of real soil with lots of organics in it, you could cut your water bill in half, or have grass on twice as much area for the same price. The problem is that you haven't really got any soil and the water either drains right through (in some spots) or pools and evaporates (in others.) If you had real soil with real organics and some airspace in it, you'd hold the water, and the plants would get more of it. Thus you'd need less. Also, if there is deeper soil, you get deeper roots. A larger percentage of the plant would be below ground, and therefore would have a reservoir of water, food, etc to draw on in hot/dry weather."
He also said that it would cost a fortune to redo the grass from scratch with the right kind, the right piping, the right everything. (I cannot recall the numbers he gave me, but they were huge.) His suggestion was to spread compost on it every month or two for the next few years. We'd gradually get our 6 inches that way. Of course, we'd have to raise the sprinklers a few times along the way.
He had one other comment about the water. He said that we were solving our bad soil problem with water. That works to some degree, but is not as cost effective as getting better soil. At least in the long run.
I've got no personal opinion about this, I'm just passing along the information from someone who should know. Someone who had no other agenda and actually cared about us to some extent.
Oh yea, I forgot to mention: "Rob Rocks!"
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
George,
You are correct in that getting a few inches of really good soil would help in water retention and also the ability to more easily grow new lawn in the problem areas. The cheapest answer to this is to get more loads of compost (cost nothing) and spread it periodically as you suggest. The only problem is the spreading itself. I for one am not looking forward to the work it took to bring out hundreds of wheelbarrels full from the dump area out to the lawn and spread it. Even with the help of a "few" other volunteers, this is WAY too much work. Most people stood by and watched the few of us that did do the work, offering only suggestions about how it could be done better.
I believe that this club should buy a Bobcat, and the sooner the better! If we are going to do it, why wait? We will use it for years, not only to periodically spread compost but also slowly and continuously contour our LZ. A Bobcat may not move much dirt in one scoop but they can move a LOT over time if we can use it daily. If and when we get one, I will make sure we get more compost the same day it arrives.
Don - thanks for the help offer of participating in a work party. This is an OK short term solution but just spreading a single load will take MANY more people. If LOTS of people were willing to participate in the spreading, the LZ could benefit right now with maybe 2 more loads. If not, I will wait for the Bobcat.
You are correct in that getting a few inches of really good soil would help in water retention and also the ability to more easily grow new lawn in the problem areas. The cheapest answer to this is to get more loads of compost (cost nothing) and spread it periodically as you suggest. The only problem is the spreading itself. I for one am not looking forward to the work it took to bring out hundreds of wheelbarrels full from the dump area out to the lawn and spread it. Even with the help of a "few" other volunteers, this is WAY too much work. Most people stood by and watched the few of us that did do the work, offering only suggestions about how it could be done better.
I believe that this club should buy a Bobcat, and the sooner the better! If we are going to do it, why wait? We will use it for years, not only to periodically spread compost but also slowly and continuously contour our LZ. A Bobcat may not move much dirt in one scoop but they can move a LOT over time if we can use it daily. If and when we get one, I will make sure we get more compost the same day it arrives.
Don - thanks for the help offer of participating in a work party. This is an OK short term solution but just spreading a single load will take MANY more people. If LOTS of people were willing to participate in the spreading, the LZ could benefit right now with maybe 2 more loads. If not, I will wait for the Bobcat.
Last edited by BudRob on Tue May 19, 2009 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bobcat
Greblo and I were discussing this topic a 6 months ago or so. It would seem that today's economic condition would be ideal for purchasing a used piece of equipment.
Crestline did it a few years ago. There is a long write-up about it somewhere buried in the CSS website.
However, I see one problem with the purchase approach - where do you keep it to minimize the visual impact (not exactly something anyone wants to look at). Then there is the debate about periodically renting versus purchase. You can do a lot of renting for the purchase price - and a whole lot more renting when you consider the periodic upkeep/repairs. And finally, a purchase decision would involve Board approval - which would probably be more involved that Board approval for periodic renting.
I like the idea of periodic (quarterly?) spreading of compost - have it delivered for free - rent a piece of equipment and be done with it in a day.
Crestline did it a few years ago. There is a long write-up about it somewhere buried in the CSS website.
However, I see one problem with the purchase approach - where do you keep it to minimize the visual impact (not exactly something anyone wants to look at). Then there is the debate about periodically renting versus purchase. You can do a lot of renting for the purchase price - and a whole lot more renting when you consider the periodic upkeep/repairs. And finally, a purchase decision would involve Board approval - which would probably be more involved that Board approval for periodic renting.
I like the idea of periodic (quarterly?) spreading of compost - have it delivered for free - rent a piece of equipment and be done with it in a day.
I hadn't thought of the "fill in the patches" issue, as noted by Rob. Another reason to get some real soil.
As for a Bobcat, I have no idea what one would cost, but it cannot possibly be anything like the cost of the tractor they got at Crestline. Also, it would be much smaller, and therefore much less unsightly. They make car-covers, right? Couldn't we put a Bobcat cover on it? Just a thought.
And it is true that this is the right economic climate to get a good used anything. I just bought a used car from a dealer and got a significantly better deal than I expected. Two years old and $15,000 less than new. (And only 22,500 miles!) But I did have to negotiate agressively.
On the other hand, it is also true that you can rent a large number of times for the cost of ownership. Clearly someone would have to run some numbers to compare the two, and do it with differing use rates - Rent twice a month, once a month, once a quarter, twice a year, etc.
But it seems to me that we shouldn't count on the physical labor of just a couple of pilots (mostly Rob) for spreading compost if we intend to really solve this issue. And, of course, we'll get some of the money back in lower water bills. (Or we'll put in more grass for the same money.) And there really are other times we could use it.
Does anyone know enough about such equipment to do that kind of analysis? I don't, but could find out. However, I'm oversubscribed as it is, so I'm not volunteering, even for tracking down the information. Does somebody out there want to do it?
As for a Bobcat, I have no idea what one would cost, but it cannot possibly be anything like the cost of the tractor they got at Crestline. Also, it would be much smaller, and therefore much less unsightly. They make car-covers, right? Couldn't we put a Bobcat cover on it? Just a thought.
And it is true that this is the right economic climate to get a good used anything. I just bought a used car from a dealer and got a significantly better deal than I expected. Two years old and $15,000 less than new. (And only 22,500 miles!) But I did have to negotiate agressively.
On the other hand, it is also true that you can rent a large number of times for the cost of ownership. Clearly someone would have to run some numbers to compare the two, and do it with differing use rates - Rent twice a month, once a month, once a quarter, twice a year, etc.
But it seems to me that we shouldn't count on the physical labor of just a couple of pilots (mostly Rob) for spreading compost if we intend to really solve this issue. And, of course, we'll get some of the money back in lower water bills. (Or we'll put in more grass for the same money.) And there really are other times we could use it.
Does anyone know enough about such equipment to do that kind of analysis? I don't, but could find out. However, I'm oversubscribed as it is, so I'm not volunteering, even for tracking down the information. Does somebody out there want to do it?
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
I believe that I heard Joe Greblo state that Fernando had a Bobcat he would sell for $7,000. That has got to beat renting in the long run, not to mention the convenience of having it when you need it. Obviously we would use it anytime we wanted, even for small things, without having to concern ourselves that the project might be "to small" to warrent renting. I for one do not want to choose between the cost benefit of doing it manually versus renting a Bobcat. I say we get one and NEVER do it manually from this point on!
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JT
So, I made this call... As it happens, one of our LZ neighbors, Sherry Ramirez (?), owns the local Bobcat rental business (she likes watching us). She only rents with an operator with a four hour minimum at $85/hour (no deals for us; her husband just passed and she has to make a profit). I told her who I was and why I was calling; Sherry asked if we had our own operator, I mentioned Mike Hayden (who she thinks she may know as a falconer) and she told me to call Valley Bobcat in Sunland. She recommended that we rent from them because they deliver the unit and service it on-site, if it breaks. She did not recommend buying one that would sit around; she pays $95/hour plus parts for service because of the hydraulics that make them difficult to work on (something about being easy to contaminate the fluid because of all the dirt). She rents from Valley when she doesn't have what her customer requires.
Just a little more information.
I may try to call Valley this week for rates. I'll ask about sales pricing, too. Does anyone know what size we're interested in? Model number and type of attachments? Grading or loading? She seemed to think grading for moving compost.
Just a little more information.
I may try to call Valley this week for rates. I'll ask about sales pricing, too. Does anyone know what size we're interested in? Model number and type of attachments? Grading or loading? She seemed to think grading for moving compost.
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JT
OK. So, I made another call... My neighbor owns a Bobcat that he wants to sell. It is a 1978 model, needs work and he's asking $3000...
But he recommends we rent one from United for $150/day or $500/ 7days. Delivery and pick up is $160; insurance $15/day, in case we break it. If we have our own truck and trailer, we save the delivery/PU fee.
My friend is a contractor who has let his Bobcat sit for long periods and listed the caveats of ownership, such as, UV rotted lines and tires ($285 each tire), dead batteries ($80), old fuel (new carbuerator=$110), etc. He estimated that we could spend $2000 or more per year in maintenance. He also mentioned that they are subject to vandalism and theft, if not stored securely.
His final comment about renting: "you get to use a new one every year."
Sorry, Rob. If you still want to buy one, I think it's fine as long as we accept what we're getting into.
But he recommends we rent one from United for $150/day or $500/ 7days. Delivery and pick up is $160; insurance $15/day, in case we break it. If we have our own truck and trailer, we save the delivery/PU fee.
My friend is a contractor who has let his Bobcat sit for long periods and listed the caveats of ownership, such as, UV rotted lines and tires ($285 each tire), dead batteries ($80), old fuel (new carbuerator=$110), etc. He estimated that we could spend $2000 or more per year in maintenance. He also mentioned that they are subject to vandalism and theft, if not stored securely.
His final comment about renting: "you get to use a new one every year."
Sorry, Rob. If you still want to buy one, I think it's fine as long as we accept what we're getting into.
Tractor
I called Rob McKenzie and talked to him about CSS's experiences with their tractor which they purchased about 2+ years ago. Rob said you can expect to spend 3 solid days of labor going over any used tractor when you purchase it - changing oil, hydrolic hoses, etc. After that you should plan on 1 day a year for routine maintence - oil changes, grease fittings, etc.
He said that they has been very little or no repair issues since they purchased it (except for the initial maintence/repair). They use it frequently for major landscape at the "ranch" and the Marshall road.
Another comment was regarding how the equipment is treated when it is owned versus rented. When rented the equipment, and operator, is pushed hard to get as much as possible done in the one day. When owned the operating time is reduced to only a couple hours at a time and the rough handling is reduced do to the fact that there is no overriding rush.
Of course, one of the major issues (besides the purchase decision) will be WHO is going to take "ownership" and make sure the equipment is maintained and serviced.
He said that they has been very little or no repair issues since they purchased it (except for the initial maintence/repair). They use it frequently for major landscape at the "ranch" and the Marshall road.
Another comment was regarding how the equipment is treated when it is owned versus rented. When rented the equipment, and operator, is pushed hard to get as much as possible done in the one day. When owned the operating time is reduced to only a couple hours at a time and the rough handling is reduced do to the fact that there is no overriding rush.
Of course, one of the major issues (besides the purchase decision) will be WHO is going to take "ownership" and make sure the equipment is maintained and serviced.
If all we need to do is drag some compost around maybe the riding mower would suffice with a trailer, its 14hp. 15 years ago my brother had maybe 12" of topsoil, sprinklers, and sod added to the backyard of an Orange County townhouse in an area about 4 times the size of the gazebo. The price was $5,000.
The grass is really good now. Walking the glider to the storage is much easier with no risk of a sprained ankle. It looks like it is not cut as short which I think may let the roots develop further. I looked into aerating the lawn, even a pitchfork would work, but there's no evidence it does any good and may invite weeds.
http://www.allaboutlawns.com/lawn-maint ... rating.php
Rome's idea of having no grass would save money but I recall stories of that "moon dust" that gets in your sail and is a pain to wash out. Rob's put a lot of hard work into that lawn and it shows. Keep up the good work.
I was exploring an idea of using the Windsports swimming pool to supply the water and later refilling with a hose pumping some discarded water from the wash.
The grass is really good now. Walking the glider to the storage is much easier with no risk of a sprained ankle. It looks like it is not cut as short which I think may let the roots develop further. I looked into aerating the lawn, even a pitchfork would work, but there's no evidence it does any good and may invite weeds.
http://www.allaboutlawns.com/lawn-maint ... rating.php
Rome's idea of having no grass would save money but I recall stories of that "moon dust" that gets in your sail and is a pain to wash out. Rob's put a lot of hard work into that lawn and it shows. Keep up the good work.
I was exploring an idea of using the Windsports swimming pool to supply the water and later refilling with a hose pumping some discarded water from the wash.
Last edited by dhmartens on Wed May 20, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm sure Greblo would not mind contributing some crystal clear swimming pool water for some "discarded water from the wash"!dhmartens wrote: I was exploring an idea of using the Windsports swimming pool to supply the water and later refilling with a hose pumping some discarded water from the wash.
Now - if someone is truely serious about saving water/money - they could get a couple 5 or 10 gallon containers and, when the wash has water in it, go fill them up - either using their hands or an empty beer bottle/can. That water could then be poured on the grass. Do this a few (thousand) times and that would be a real savings.
Any volunteers ? Back when I was on the BOD, I had this brainstorm about drilling a well at the edge of our property and getting water from below the wash. It's a wash, it's got to have water under it, right?
Unfortunately, while it might have water, that water does not belong to us, even the stuff under our own property.
Grant Hoag, who has some background in this (how much I don't know) says that it is already owned by someone else. I assume that includes the water in the creek when it is flowing.
But, boy, free water (or for the cost of a well and pumping) would make a huge difference. We could have grass on the whole place. But it seems that it is not to be. Too bad.
Unfortunately, while it might have water, that water does not belong to us, even the stuff under our own property.
Grant Hoag, who has some background in this (how much I don't know) says that it is already owned by someone else. I assume that includes the water in the creek when it is flowing. But, boy, free water (or for the cost of a well and pumping) would make a huge difference. We could have grass on the whole place. But it seems that it is not to be. Too bad.
Fly High; Fly Far; Fly Safe -- George
