Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

As most of you that follow our forum know, I’ve spent most of my posts regarding the Regional Director issue in pointless heckling of Bob Kuczewski and his posts. He is strident and zealous in his pursuit of his goals as an RD. I find zealots easy, funny targets… and dangerous. Bob’s intensity would be laudable except that he has overstepped even my low threshold of comportment. Attacking Brad Hall publicly is a mistake that has lead to his present position of ineffectiveness. Who cares? I don’t really know Brad but he seems to be able to take care of himself. Using my name for leverage (who does he think I am?) is laughable. Dragging Greblo’s name into it is inexcusable.

However, that isn’t my problem with Bob and not the main reason that a group, mainly disaffected San Diego pilots, I think, is attempting to recall Bob and install a new director from their hang gliding ranks. My problem is that Bob, in his zealous drive for his version of fairness, is actively doing damage to the USHPA, the organization that serves us all. He is threatening litigation that has already incurred expense from legal counsel. I have some of the letters that have been exchanged between the lawyers. He is claiming a right to attend executive committee meetings, a committee upon which he doesn’t serve. He had been invited until he began his threats and the invitation was rescinded.

I don’t know if he or the USHPA is right or wrong. Again, I don’t really care about the internal workings. Every other director must be able to work within the confines of the present structure; apparently, Bob doesn’t think it’s fair to him. Oh, well.

But, I really don’t think it is in our best interests as members of the USHPA (that happens to provide our personal liability insurance at very low cost) to have a regional director that is suing our organization, basically incurring costs to all of us, to advance his overriding issue, the problems that he and a few others had at Torrey Pines. It is a local issue, best handled locally by more politically adept parties.

There are problems with the way Torrey and the USHPA handles some things and Bob is correct to suggest a means of correction. Self-destructive litigation wasn't what I had in mind, though.

I felt a need to express my thoughts on what I believe should be of interest to us; my apologies to anyone offended. I’m sure Bob will effectively provide his counterpoint and correct any inaccuracies.

I think campaigning for a different RD is the most fair way of working within the "confines of the present structure."

I can't imagine putting ones voice on the local clubs boards being a less fair method of handling problems in his local region.

There is a problem at Torrey and it is in our region. He is trying to fix it.

One more thing about being sue happy, and needless litigation.

Doesn't the USHPA send shake down letters to its members.


For example here is a letter sent by a San Jose lawyer sent to Davis Straub. They are not effectively using our resources to further our flight related issues. Certainly stopping members from discussing competition rule changes is expensive and an example of needless legal action.

http://ozreport.com/docs/lettertoDavisS ... _10_15.pdf

JT, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but your comments are just wrong. You've been given information from a secret website called "recallBobK.com" where a bunch of hateful people have posted lies behind my back. I can't even go to that site to defend myself. That should be telling you something right there.

That's how cults are formed - pull people into a room and show them only one side of the story and don't let anyone else know what's been said.

You wrote:

jt wrote:But, I really don't think it is in our best interests as members of the USHPA (that happens to provide our personal liability insurance at very low cost) to have a regional director that is suing our organization, basically incurring costs to all of us, to advance his overriding issue, the problems that he and a few others had at Torrey Pines. It is a local issue, best handled locally by more politically adept parties.

First of all, I am not suing anyone. So how could you come to this forum and say that I am? I am very disappointed in you for making such a statement, and I would appreciate an apology and a retraction. I won't demand it, and I'll leave it up to your own honor and integrity to decide what to do.

But I will tell the other side of the story (short form). The USHPA Executive Committee (EC) told me that I could not attend their meetings.

For those who don't know, the EC is 4 Directors who meet every month by teleconference. They act in place of the entire Board and they are subordinate to the entire Board in that the Board can over-rule their decisions. So the Board (your elected Directors) really hold the ultimate authority.

I felt it was wrong for the EC to exclude Directors, and I felt that Directors have the right of inspection to know what's going on and that would also give them the right to attend any meetings (including the monthly EC teleconferences). I confirmed this (informally) with two separate lawyers, and then I relayed this information on to the EC. I advised them that it might be illegal for them to exclude Directors from their meetings. They still refused. At that time, no one had spent a dime on that issue (as far as I know).

So I took the time and spent my own money to have one of those two lawyers write up a legal opinion to send to the Board advising them that it was improper (and likely illegal) for them to exclude Directors from their meetings. At that point, I had spent money, but USHPA still hadn't spent a dime (at least as far as I know).

Now here's where USHPA made a decision to begin to spend their time and our members' money to answer that request with their own legal opinion. They didn't have to do that. That was their decision because they valued keeping Directors out of their "secret EC meetings" more than they valued our members' money. Is that what they should be doing? What did they gain by keeping selected Directors out? They claim that they publish accurate minutes of their meetings, so there's no need for Directors to attend. But if that's so, then there should be no reason for Directors to be excluded either!

So USHPA's lawyer responded, and mine responded back, and that has escalated to threats of lawsuits, but no one has filed anything against anyone.

So Jim's statement "to have a regional director that is suing our organization" does not reflect on any of my actions up to this point. I'm sorry Jim, but it does not. I am not suing anyone. Instead, I am spending lots of my own money to establish a right for our elected Directors to at least observe what the EC is doing in their "secret meetings". I think that's working toward making USHPA better ... at my own expense!

Jim also writes "I have some of the letters that have been exchanged between the lawyers" as if he secretly obtained these from the secret web site where no one else can go. Jim, I've posted those legal opinions myself on hanggliding.org long ago. You can read the legal opinions right here:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14816

Now I will agree with Jim that when I read the detailed legal arguments of one lawyer and then the next, it's hard for me to know which is right in the technical sense. But without reading any of them, I know what is right in the moral sense. The Directors are elected to represent the members and have a right to know everything that goes on inside USHPA. That speaks for itself, and I believe the law would favor more openness rather than less when it comes to corporations and the Directors who represent the members. So if this does go to court and the EC loses, then they will not only have wasted our money, but will not have even achieved their goal of retaining "secret meetings". What will their point have been?

And that brings me to my final comment on this particular legal issue. Why would the EC NOT want to allow Directors to attend their meetings anyway? What do they have to hide? And why would they NOT favor the openness gained by allowing all Directors to attend?

Jim also wrote:

jt wrote:Dragging Greblo's name into it is inexcusable.

Rather than dispute that, let me just quote Brad Hall's posting to the SDHGPA Forum http://sdhgpa.freeforums.org/post873.html from October 10th, 2009. I won't defend against all of Brad's accusations
(although you can bet that I could nail every one of them), but I'll just quote his entire "speech" (with the word "Joe Greblo" highlighted):

Brad Hall wrote:In case anyone needed a lesson on why you should vote for me, just read the posts here by Bob K. Has anyone in the flying community ever been more out of touch with reality? Last time I looked there were 3 candidates on the RD ballot, and Bob is not one of them. Once again we are seeing a desperate move to convince everyone that "Bobs way" is the only way. I am now "called out" in BIG RED LETTERS!. Really, the lies and accusations made by Bob are well known by most everyone in the San Diego area. Seems he can't stand the fact that the SDHGPA has decided to endorse me. He has to insult and belittle them to try to make their opinions look like they don't matter as much as his own. What a pathetic move. I don't see him doing the same thing on the Sylmar forum where Joe Greblo has endorsed me. Using Bob K. logic, what does that say about Joe? Trying to take credit for the atmosphere at Torrey or the change of policy on tandem right of way rules shows how deluded he is. He was not even a participant in the discussions on right of way. It was the decision of the management and the pilots that actually fly at Torrey that brought
about the changes. It is a better site in spite of his efforts, not because of them. It is way past time for him to get over his Jebb obsessions and move on. No one believes his accusations and there is no proof to back them up, so they should be seen for what they are; rants and unfounded accusations. This election is about the future of representation in Region 3. Not the past. I do not think having a Bob K. endorsement or having 99% of everything said about the candidate be from Bob is helping Jerry Katz gain credibility for himself. Just the opposite. Maybe it is time for Bob to shut his pie hole and for Jerry to speak up. By the way, I did an email search and the only thing in my files addressed to the mayor is posted below.

Brad

JT, you said "Dragging Greblo's name into it is inexcusable". How does Joe's name look buried in a public posting where Brad says that I've told lies, and that I'm deluded, and where he says I should "shut my pie hole"? And yet you find my posts objectionable?

I could answer more of your own post JT, but I think this is enough for everyone to get the idea. You've been misled by people you've trusted. You can continue to cling to what they've told you or you can recognize that they've given you just enough of the story to allow you to discredit yourself in your own postings. If I were you, I'd be pretty mad at them. But again, you can do whatever your own honor and integrity suggests.

Bob Kuczewski

Thanks for correcting me, Bob, you aren't presently suing anyone. You are threatening litigation. The effect is the same: the organization has to retain cousel to defend themselves. That costs money. The text of your counsel's letter warns of costs to the USHPA for legal/court fees should you pursue your possible suit and win. Another threat to be answered. Why? Because they didn't want to let you into a committee meeting.

You're also correct Bob, that we shouldn't trust anyone. These directors are all hiding behind closed doors to devise diabolical plots for our destruction. Only you, Bob, are honorable and trustworthy.

I'm so sorry, Bob, you are wrong about my sources. I don't have access to the website you mention and I haven't asked to secure access. The legal letters were sent directly to me by another SD area pilot. I'm sorry I can't get on that site to defend your honor for you. I guess the authors don't like me, either. What do you think they're saying about me?

Sorry I used the word "drag." Brad only claimed endorsement from Joe G. You castigate him for that. I'm sorry Joe didn't agree with you; he deserves your wrath.

Now that I think about all you've written, I'm sorry I still don't know your entire story; maybe you should spend some more time instructing all of us.

Be assured though that you have convinced me that you are undoubtedly correct in all your positions; I know that because you've said so and you are above question and suspicion. You have only my best interests in mind and I know you will go to any length to make sure I'm happy. Thanks Bob!

Almost forgot: I'm so terribly sorry I disappointed you. I'm devastated.

And a belated thanks for limiting yourself to the short version in your reply.

jt wrote:Thanks for correcting me, Bob, you aren't presently suing anyone. You are threatening litigation. The effect is the same: the organization has to retain cousel to defend themselves. That costs money. The text of your counsel's letter warns of costs to the USHPA for legal/court fees should you pursue your possible suit and win. Another threat to be answered. Why? Because they didn't want to let you into a committee meeting.

Jim,

You asked the question "Why?".

The answer is very simple. If USHPA is doing something illegal by preventing Directors from attending their EC meetings then they should stop. It's as simple as that.

I was barred from attending and I asked the EC for a legal basis for that action. This is one such example prior to the EC meeting in question:

On September 28, 2009, Bob Kuczewski wrote:Members of the Executive Committee,
Paul Montville,
cc Timothy Herr,
bcc Witnesses,

I have asked to be included in the Executive Committee teleconference on September 29th, 2009. As a Director of USHPA, I believe it is my right to attend this meeting. Please provide me with the procedures for attending this meeting or the legal basis for excluding me.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3

No reason was ever given and I was not allowed to attend.

Now that's either legal or illegal. I don't know myself. What should I do?

I think the wise thing is to try to find out. So I hired a lawyer (at my own expense) and he wrote a letter to USHPA describing why they should be allowing Directors to attend all meetings of the corporation.

If USHPA had simply agreed (what was the down side of this?), then there would have been no money spent by USHPA.

But rather than adopt a policy allowing Directors to attend, the USHPA EC made the decision to spend our money (it's my money too) to get Tim Herr to write a response justifying the EC's ability to bar selected Directors. That led to a response by my lawyer and it has escalated from there. No one has been sued although there have been threats made.

Now there are two ways to get an answer. We can keep pushing lawyer's letters back and forth until it ends up in court - where a judge will eventually give us a final legal answer. Or USHPA can recognize that there is no reason for barring Directors in the first place. Has anyone heard a clear justification for barring Directors anyway? Is there a policy that states when Directors should be invited and when they should be barred?

But either way Jim, it is improper for you to blame this situation on me without recognizing the EC's role in this escalation. I am working toward a more open and inclusive EC, and they are resisting it. Who is right?

I for one would like my voice heard and my regional directors able to participate. I think the EC is overworked and underpaid(zero pay). Their inability to cope is most likely leading to their adoption of a fascist dictatorship style of governance as a last resort.

It just makes no sense why USHPA would spend $50,000 to guarantee wining a lawsuit that bans directors from listening to a conference call. Can't they use gotomeeting.com? do we really need to sell Andy Jackson's tractor and cancel the magazine to fund this?

BTW here s a list of endorsements for Bob K.
http://torreyhawks.org/r3/ENDNOFR.HTM

This is Joe Greblo's endorsement of Bob:
"Bob,

As a manager of one of the full-time flight parks that you frequent, and an officer on the board of another, I appreciate the level of respect and responsibility that you have afforded us during your flying career. You have always been viewed here as a fine example of safety, cooperation, and comradery. I think you'd make a fine Regional Director.

Joe Greblo"

One way to get more hang gliding voices heard in San Diego is for pilots to join the Torrey Hawks, and also join the RC clubs down there, as a way to add even more voices if that is possible.

I have been studying this urban legend myth of pilot mistreatment down at Torrey. Other than a Tandem instructor are there any actual documented cases? The last 2 SHGA pilot reports from down there were hassle free. If there is a problem we should keep a log book of incidence with name, date, what was said, what was implied, witnesses etc. It looks like the problem is gone.

I found a short documentary on David Jebb who I heard was to blame for many things, but was also a pioneer of the sport.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPc2ARYqzY4[/youtube]

Ultimately I think the EC's path will catch up with them. There is already talk on another forum of completely bypassing the USHPA.

Doug

Imagine flying through that gaggle of PGs without catching a wingtip.Looks scary!

You're right Bob, you aren't responsible for anything except being right all the time. It must be a Guiness World record for rightness. You are omniscient; you can see through walls in into the minds of those insidious plotters. Along with you're other proposals, I'm ready to support a motion to close Torrey for your use only. I want you at the committee sessions for our U.S. Senators and Congressmen. I want you to sit at Obama's right hand. How could anything be done without your sage advice and consent? God knows, literally, that you know best. I'm not sure that God even knows how right you are. That's it; you need access to God's private sessions. If the executve committee can't keep you out, how can anyone else?

As my friend says, they took away your toy so, you have a right to throw a tantrum.

I give up, you are going to go your own way no matter how self-destructive or disruptive to a useful entity. You will continue to alienate anyone that had any notion of supporting you (as I did), if they question any of your incesant diatribe.

You win, post what you will. Threaten whoever you want. Fill this forum with all the unreasonable, one-sided, tunnel-vision rhetoric you can take the time to write. Spend your fortune on lawyers to defend your "right" to go anywhere you like. Continue your character assassinations.

And know that I believe you are a much smaller person than I thought before the election. But don't worry, you dont' care what I think.

You're right.

Almost forgot again, Oh Great Five-Star General and President-for-Life: please remove my name from the roll of Torrey Hawks; number 201 has checked out, permanently. I have no reason to have any further communications from you or your club, that is, you. May the next owner of that spot serve you more effectively.

For anyone in the SHGA, I strongly suggest that you ask anyone other than Bob, especially Bob K., how to go about approaching a date at Torrey. You don't want to end up getting kicked out for no good reason (his) and going through the same mess he has. I'm told it isn't really that bad. You just have to follow the rules... maybe a bit more than we do at Kagel. With all the PGs in the air, it's probably a good idea.

For those of you who continue to support Bob, he's got a good heart. Please talk to him and ask him to continue his tilt at windmills but to lose the lance. Smack him on the side of the head and ask him to stop attacking anyone who doesn't jump to his side immediately. Teach him compromise; it means both sides are unhappy but they both get a little bit of what they want. Good luck to you all and come fly with us. We need the money.

edited 6.2018

Wow,

Well after following these posts both here and on other HG related web sites for some time now, all I can say is I am thankfull we have our little group at Sylmar where everyone gets along and everybody makes new people such as myself feel welcome. When I land (usualy on my knees...LOL ) I am always offered a beer in the LZ by someone I have yet to meet. So I guess what I am getting at is that its nice to have a great place to fly, with great people close to home and not have to deal with the politics and troubles that The Torrey Hawks are dealing with. Just kind of puts things in perspective a bit..

Hope to be out flying again soon...that is when the weather cooperates.

Take care,

Marc

Look like that might be Crestline this Sunday ,I think I'll give it a whirl I'll bring some beer.

I agree with Marc. Shga is an absolutly wonderful place to spend time away from your wife.......I mean flying

Jim,

I didn't say any of the things you implied that I said. I didn't say that I was right all the time, or that I was omniscient, or that I could see through walls. So you're arguing against positions that I haven't taken. But I guess it's easier to "win" that way. Your resignation is accepted.

Barton,

I'm sorry you can't see the positive improvements we've made at Torrey, but your resignation is accepted as well.

For all other members of the Hawks, please don't feel any pressure to stay. Our goal has always been fair treatment for all pilots at Torrey and fair representation for the sport of hang gliding at that site. We have NOT had that in the past, and the fact that things have gotten so much better is a testament to our effectiveness as a club. It has not been an easy road, and I thank all members of the Hawks who've helped us get this far. I also welcome any other members of the SHGA who would like to join us in keeping hang gliding alive and well at Torrey. Thanks!

Bob Kuczewski
858-204-7499
bobkuczewski@gmail.com

jt wrote:You're right Bob, you aren't responsible for anything except being right all the time. It must be a Guiness World record
for rightness. You are omniscient; you can see through walls in into the minds of those insidious plotters. Along with you're other
proposals, I'm ready to support a motion to close Torrey for your use only. I want you at the committee sessions for our U.S.
Senators and Congressmen. I want you to sit at Obama's right hand. How could anything be done without your sage advice and consent?
God knows, literally, that you know best. I'm not sure that God even knows how right you are. That's it; you need access to God's
private sessions. If the executve committee can't keep you out, how can anyone else?

As my friend says, they took away your toy so, you have a right to throw a tantrum.

I give up, you are going to go your own way no matter how self-destructive or disruptive to a useful entity. You will continue to
alienate anyone that had any notion of supporting you (as I did), if they question any of your incesant diatribe.

You win, post what you will. Threaten whoever you want. Fill this forum with all the unreasonable, one-sided, tunnel-vision rhetoric
you can take the time to write. Spend your fortune on lawyers to defend your "right" to go anywhere you like. Continue your
character assassinations.

And know that I believe you are a much smaller person than I thought before the election. But don't worry, you dont' care what I
think.

You're right.

Almost forgot again, Oh Great Five-Star General and President-for-Life: please remove my name from the roll of Torrey Hawks; number
201 has checked out, permanently. I have no reason to have any further communications from you or your club, that is, you. May the
next owner of that spot serve you more effectively.

For anyone in the SHGA, I strongly suggest that you ask anyone other than Bob, especially Bob K., how to go about approaching a date
at Torrey. You don't want to end up getting kicked out for no good reason (his) and going through the same mess he has. I'm told it
isn't really that bad. You just have to follow the rules... maybe a bit more than we do at Kagel. With all the PGs in the air, it's
probably a good idea.

For those of you who continue to support Bob, he's got a good heart. Please talk to him and ask him to continue his tilt at
windmills but to lose the lance. Smack him on the side of the head and ask him to stop attacking anyone who doesn't jump to his side
immediately. Teach him compromise; it means both sides are unhappy but they both get a little bit of what they want. Good luck to
you all and come fly with us. We need the money.

barton wrote:Bob,

Please delete my membership from the Torrey Hawks, number 100.

I won't be looking back.

b

Hi Marc,

You do have a great club at Sylmar. I would use it as a model of what I would like to acheive at Torrey, except I tend to pick Crestline because they have strong HG and PG membership. But I think both clubs are great examples of what we should work toward at Torrey.

And just to bring that message home, imagine if someone like David Jebb had somehow gotten control of Sylmar - maybe he convinced various government agencies that they needed a "strong" concession to keep control at that site. Imagine what that would mean to your club. Imagine what that would mean to your site. Imagine what that would mean to your community.

That's what happened here in San Diego. Jebb worked to remove all pilot oversight at Torrey. He had undermined the Soaring Council to the point where it hadn't met in years and several of its members had died and were not even replaced. Jebb could do whatever he wanted and no one in the pilot community challenged him. That's the environment that I found when I got there. It could be that way again. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

Thanks to all Sylmar pilots who've supported the Hawks. I haven't made all the right decisions, but I've done my best in a very difficult and toxic situation. Thanks to each of you who've been there to help. Anyone else who believes in representation for hang gliding at Torrey is welcome to join us. Please give me a call, send me an email message, or just post here. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
858-204-7499
bobkuczewski@gmail.com

http://ozreport.com/docs/EC_Fall_09_Com ... Report.pdf

Here are the official USHPA meeting notes from November. It contains all legal correspondence.

I personally like to make informed decisions.

Did USHPA withhold meeting notes before a visitor was was to meet Bob at Torrey?

My other idea was to start a "Fight Club" at Torrey. After seeing Jebbs documentary I recognized the Martial Arts type personality that may have caused some tension there. It works fine until an ex-Marine shows up.
A fight club could be a good thing. You can wear a color coded whistle as an indicator. Red=I want to fight, Yellow=I might be convinced to fight, Green=No fight, if you bother me you get an unsportsmanlike conduct fine.

I think a flying competition is a better way to determine the better pilot.

Doug