Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

NMERider wrote:

stebbins wrote:.............from a purely theoretical perspective, the lighter pitch pressure on a topless..............

And why would it be easier from the basetube if low on the downtubes is hard? Your hands are in almost the same place (assuming your hands are widely spaced, and not close to the middle of the basetube.).........

Couple of things about pitch pressure:
I land my T2 and T2C with the VG somewhere between 1/4 full off. Not only is the pitch pressure equal to, or considerably greater on my T2s than my Falcon from 28 through 50 MPH, but the T2s have a tendency to porpoise up hard at the slightest provocation whereas the Falcon lacks that tendancy.

This is significantly at variance with my experience. (And I doubt you've ever had your Falcon to 50 mph.) My litespeed (and the other topless gliders I've flown) have much lighter pitch pressure than a Falcon. As for the porpoising, of course they do that if you raise the nose. They have more energy retention. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" "Well, don't do that!"

As far as the downtube vs basebar question:

1 - The arms produce far more power with the hand gripping a straight bar than with the hands and wrists in a contorted position grasping at streamlined downtubes.

2 - I keep my hands on the speed bar section of the base tube or much more cloasely spaced than on the downtubes. The difference in mechanical ability to pull in is huge. Combining that with the increased arm power, it's no contest.

Hands on the downtubes on a T2 with VG at 1/4 or less yields only a fractional degree of pitch authority and a compromised roll authority. This opinion comes from over 250 hours of T2 flying in a 17-month period.

1) It isn't awkward for me. Or contorted. In fact, I often move my hands up to them to fly when thermalling because it is more comfortable. Maybe you are using the wrong grip. Maybe you don't practice it enough. I do admit that many years ago, there were a couple of gliders with DTs so long in the fore/aft direction that they were hard to hold. But those aren't being made any more. And I have shorter fingers than average, meaning most folks should have less trouble than me.

2) If you have your hands closer together you are giving up roll power. If you have them farther apart, you get that back. (Try putting both hands right next to each other and try and fly that way.)

Again, one-up-one down solves all that, as I've said, you clearly have more pitch power and more roll power. It does have the issue of that pesky hand transition though.

stebbins wrote:2) If you have your hands closer together you are giving up roll power. If you have them farther apart, you get that back. (Try putting both hands right next to each other and try and fly that way.)

Sidetrack... (Perhaps the start of another thread)
In Dennis Pagan's book Performance Flying, one of the "bad habits" of advancing pilots is keeping the hands spread far apart on the basetube. The book claims there is better leverage and/or control when hands are kept at shoulder length apart. I often times find that my arms get tired when I keep them shoulder length apart, especially when flying endless 360's in one thermal, so I move my hands closer to the corner brackets. What are your thoughts on this technique? (Granted, my arms are about 15% longer than the average pilot, so my body geometry may have something to do with it).

stebbins wrote:........................

I will not waste my breath responding to any poster who does not listen.

To readers who do listen, it is appreciated. My and BudRob's advice comes from hundreds of hours of flying and hundreds of landings each rather than than equivelent time staring into a reflective pool.

Take Care! Jonathan

NMERider wrote:

stebbins wrote:........................

I will not waste my breath responding to any poster who does not listen.

To readers who do listen, it is appreciated. My and BudRob's advice comes from hundreds of hours of flying and hundreds of landings each rather than than equivelent time staring into a reflective pool.

Take Care! Jonathan

Bwah Ha Ha! This is a joke, right?

jwjanda wrote: Sidetrack... (Perhaps the start of another thread)
In Dennis Pagan's book Performance Flying, one of the "bad habits" of advancing pilots is keeping the hands spread far apart on the basetube. The book claims there is better leverage and/or control when hands are kept at shoulder length apart. I often times find that my arms get tired when I keep them shoulder length apart, especially when flying endless 360's in one thermal, so I move my hands closer to the corner brackets. What are your thoughts on this technique? (Granted, my arms are about 15% longer than the average pilot, so my body geometry may have something to do with it).

I don't buy Dennis's reasoning in this case. But there are other very valid reasons why shoulder spacing is good. (You can get better streamlining for instance. And there are others.) But leverage isn't one of them.

Think about it. If your hands are far apart, you can pull effectively to get the glider to move. If they are at shoulder spacing, your chest is (somewhat) in the way, and the angle on your wrists and elbows is worse for strong effort. That said, if you do it enough, you build up the appropriate muscles, and it probably matters more what is comfortable for you.

Try it high sometime, and you'll see what I mean. When your hands are farther apart, you can use your whole arm, not just the forearm.

However, I do find it more comfortable to be closer in. Slightly wider than shoulder width is most comfortable for me - your mileage may differ. Comfort is not the same as control or leverage, however.

stebbins wrote:.................Bwah Ha Ha! This is a joke, right?

Glad you have a healthy sense of humor George. It is indeed a gag.

I want you to go back a re-read what I wrote very carefully with an eye to what I am saying from my perspective. Not your perspective. My perspective.

I understand that you have the gift of being able to pull down the nose of your LiteSpeed when the VG is turned off and with your hands low on the downtubes. Neither I nor most pilots I know are able to to do this.

It's imperative to bear in mind that this only pertains to having the VG all the way off or very close to it. For most pilots I know, it is very very difficult to pull the nose down when the VG is off of close to being off. Additionally, the nose pitches up much easier than on a Falcon when the VG is mostly off on a T2.

I have had my Falcon 3 195 up to 50 mph but while flying prone. It's not difficult when prone. If I flew seated in my cocoon harness I guess I could get it to a tad over 40 mph with my hands on the downtubes.

Anyhow, I have a technique to making a hand transition while flying well above trim speed. I will present it in a video at some point in the future.

Maybe Jonathan can help or persuade me to put a camera on my Topless glider and show what I believe to be safest.

I have a very, very big problem with the idea of moving the hands up on the down tubes anytime before the glider reaches trim airspeed, late in ground effect, a moment before the flare.

Any other time, increases the risk of either a pilot induced turn or a turbulence induced turn. By any other time, I mean anytime during downwind, base, or final.

I find that there are so many experts out there that try to convince pilots that the methods that have served them well are of course the "best" methods. This is normal, and all these pilots have the greatest of intentions. However, keep in mind, that "good" ways, may not be the "best" ways.

If one could depend upon the air remaining absolutely smooth, then I wouldn't give a hoot what you do. Problem is turbulence is the norm, not the exception. Other than in ridge soaring conditions, we're begging for turbulence when we go flying. Without it, we have little or no thermal lift.

I believe that it is critical to strictly adhere to two tenets when launching and landing a device that's as control deficient as a modern hang glider.

1. Never fly a hang glider slow in any potential turbulence, if you are in a location that you cannot afford to accidently and inadvertently get turned 90 to 180 degrees.

2. Never change hand positions unless the glider is at trim speed. Of course in smooth air this poses only very minor risks.

I've noticed that......

1. Pilots that fly hang glider slow in turbulence, tend to get turned far further off course, than do pilots that fly hang gliders faster while in turbulence.

2. Pilots that change their hand positions when the control bar is exerting positive or negative pitch pressures, tend to get turned off course much further than pilots that change their hand positions only while at trim speed.

That's all I have time for at the moment. I'm sure this will inspire lots of thoughtful responses and there's lots more here to discuss.

Joe

NMERider wrote:..............Anyhow, I have a technique to making a hand transition while flying well above trim speed. I will present it in a video at some point in the future.

I neglected to mention that I do not endorse this technique. It's more on the order of a trick than a technique. My bad for not mentioning this the first time.

Anyhow, I have plenty of cameras and mounts and will be happy to equip Joe accordingly and edit the footage. Maybe I'll even do an interview and add Joe's commentary to the video.

I will reiterate what I beleive I said earlier in this thread which is, in the video first I got turned 75 degrees to my right when I was overpowered by the turbulence over the wash and it was necessary to change my grip from downtubes to basebar in order to have sufficient pitch and roll authority to lower the angle of attack and bring the glider under control and back on course. Why? because I had sufficient altitude at the time to pull it off. Had I been lower I would have been more likely to leave my hands where they were and just lived with it.

I had a landing at Crestline a few weeks ago where it was gusting from 10 to 25 mph in the LZ and once I was within 50 feet of the ground and my glider got turned radically to the left and blown off the LZ, I stuck with my hand grip low on the DTs and had a nice, safe landing in the LZ.

OIt seems I've yet again confused the issue, and I apologize. In my previous post, I did not mean to imply that I believe that it is important to keep the hands on the base tube during landing approaches.

My statement should have read "I have a very, very big problem with the idea of moving the hands HIGH up on the down tubes anytime before the glider reaches trim airspeed, late in ground effect, a moment before the flare".

During approaches, I believe that the hands should remain low; low on the down tubes, or one hand low on the downtube and the other on the base tube, depending upon pilot preference, downtube shape, distance of pilots hips above the base tube, glider pitch pressures, base tube width, etc. More specifically, allowing the hands to be at shoulder height or higher, when the pilot is in the upright flying position, will limit both pitch range and roll authority, and this is very dangerous in the turbulent conditions we commonly fly in.

It is true that my mantra (BLES, mentioned in others posts) suggests the hands should be low, I do not believe that both hands must be on the downtubes. I support keeping both hands low on the downtubes, if the pilot can attain a very low angle of attack with this hand position. If not, I agree that keeping one hand down on the base tube through out the entire down wind, base, and final legs, is important.

Pitch range, and roll authority is the issue here. On departure and approaches pilots are in what I call a "danger zone". A danger zone is any where, in flight, that an inadvertent turn could be dangerous. And in danger zones, a pilot should..........

1. not be caught changing body position or hands from prone to upright, or visa versa.

2. not be caught flying at trim speed, or at any angle of attack that would allow a turbulence induced stall.

Of course, during the latest stages of final approach (right before the flare), the pilot must transition through slow flight. There is no way to avoid this danger.

Another thing worth mentioning is addressed by Jonathan. That is, the need to practice these hand and body positions more often than just on launch and landings. I can't think of a more consistently dangerous time of flight than launches and landings, yet pilots generally get very little airtime flying with these hand and body positions.

It is true that we are good at what we do often. We generally perform poorly at tasks we are inexperienced with. With that in mind, I believe it is very wise for pilots to try to budget much more of their airtime flying in the landing approach body and hand position. In my case, I have found that I need to spend about 20 per cent of my flying hours in this position for me to remain highly skilled at it. This is only difficult for those pilots that choose to spend their entire flight racing in the prone position. As a result, these pilots often choose to "prone out" immediately on launch, and remain prone throughout the entire landing approach. I find this immensely dangerous, and I suspect this should be the topic of another discussion.

NMERider wrote:

stebbins wrote:.................Bwah Ha Ha! This is a joke, right?

Glad you have a healthy sense of humor George. It is indeed a gag. ....

Humor is important. Recent research has shown that a good belly laugh will lower your blood pressure (afterwards, of course!) as much as mild exercise. So, it is not only good for your mind, but good for your body.

I used to know a guy who had no sense of humor. He wasn't some sad unhappy guy, he just had no sense of humor. None. But he was very smart. I often saw him size up a situation, tell a joke where appropriate (one he clearly didn't get himself) and move on. But he didn't do it because he felt it, only because he "calculated" that now was the right time for a joke. Weird. Interesting to see him deal (quite well) with his handicap.

Me, I have the opposite problem sometines. I think too many things are funny as long as I'm getting enough sleep and airtime. Not getting enough of those lately, though.