Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

On Sunday, Jim Mercadante and I went to Ave S. On Launch, Hungary Joe mentioned that there was a possibility of getting very high. The small cummies to our NE indicated that there were thermals out there, but they were far from the hill, so I didn't put on any warm clothes.

After diddling around on launch waiting for the clouds to get closer, we finally launched. Within 5 minutes, I was in a thermal that took me to 7800'. Pretty good for S. Unfortunately, my camelback hose had come out of my camelback, and two liters of water were draining all over me. Oh well, I wasn't about to land now! And it seemed warm enough to cope with the wetness. I thought: "I'll see if I can go towards Ave L!" I started that way, and got drilled. So, I faded right, and went out to the LZ high. Turning at Ave S itself, I then flew East to 10th St. W, just short of the 14 Freeway, and then made a beeline back towards launch. It was too early to land.

To my surprise, I flew right into another boomer and took it to 9800' MSL. "This time, I'm high enough that I will not bail out", I thought. So, despite only intermittent radio contact with Jim, I got small, and went on glide to the WNW, following the hills. There were now clouds that direction, and I was headed for one on the next large peak to the West. I got a terrible glide, but was so high that I figured I would at least be able to hit that cloud and if nothing was there, go North to get out of Leona Valley. The winds there can be nasty and unpredicable in a NE. Nothing at the cloud, so at 7800' I started to fade North. Feeling some texture in the air again, I moved a bit more to the right, and towards a large housing construction project. Boom. I hit a boomer and took it to 10,300'. Now, with the altitude and the water soaking me, I was really cold. The newly forming cloud above me was getting bigger, and wasn't that far above me, so I went on glide towards the Ave L ridge. Half way there, and my trusty 5030 told me it was a 4 to 1 glide to the LZ. "OK", I thought, "I will just keep going."

At this point I considered (for the second time) heading towards Kagel, but the forecast had been for 40-50 mph winds in the passes, so I decided that I didn't really want to try landing down there. So, I just continued towards the WNW, getting a really nice glide. Over 20 to 1 and sometimes 35 or 40 to 1.

As I passed Ave L at 8k or so, I heard a huge rushing sound to my right. I glanced over there and saw a sailplane going at least 90 mph and in a dive. It then raised it's nose and started a climb. "Showoff!" I thought. Boy do those wings bend. I was amazed. The sailplane then proceded to do a loop right beside me. It then waggled it's wings and flew East.

At this point I considered that if I could find another thermal, maybe I'd fly back to Ave S. After all, I hadn't heard from Jim since I left, and he didn't answer my radio calls. I glanced behind me and saw that there was a line of virga extending from Ave S launch to the NNE. I wasn't going back.

I continued along the Ave L ridge, until just short of the castle about 18 miles from Ave S. (There is a castle out there. I landed there once before from L.) At that point the texture of the air changed. It got bumpy and the sink increased. It seemd that the wind was more southerly, or at least that the northerly component had disappeared. So, I faded away from the line of hills towards more forgiving terrain. I didn't want to have to land in the foothills here in switchy wind.

The farther I got from the hills, the more clear it was that that was the right call. I got a bit of lift and gained 400' in 50 fpm lift over a burned area. But the lift was light, and stopped at a bit over 6000'. At this point I realized that the wind was no longer from the East. It seemed a bit SW. "OK, do I try and get up and go back?" A quick glance behind showed me that the virga had become rain. "Nope, just push on and land into the West wind."

So getting lower and now in a 20 mph headwind, I just pushed on to the deck. At 800', I had a nice field picked out. I reached for my harness zipper pull, and gave it a smooth tug. Nothing. "Uh-oh!". A harder pull yielded nothing. Luckily, in my last thermal the zipper had come down a bit. I was able to work my legs out of the harness. Unfortunately, my left ankle was now wrapped in the zipper pull line. Not just twisted, but fully wrapped. At 600', I tried to undo it one-handed. No luck. After some interesting heading changes, and down to 400', I decided to land with my foot tangled. Messing with a harness on final is a prescription for serious accident or worse. "It's windy, right? I'm guessing 20-25. Shouldn't be a problem." As I pointed the glider into the wind, I had a sudden brainstorm. Using my right foot, I unwrapped my left one. I have no idea why, but that was far easier and also successful. Maybe bending over to use my hands tightened the harness line or something.

So, down to 300', and into the wind, I now had both landing gear available. But I was now behind the row of bushes that I had originally planned to land on the West side of. And my angle showed me I was going to land on them, unless the wind was lighter at the surface. So, I faded right to a very wide dirt road, figuring that would give me a bit more room. Of course, the wind WAS lighter near the surface, and I landed next to the road about 150' past the bushes in 15-20 mph surface winds.

As I started to pack up my stuff and call Jim on his cell phone, it started to rain. So, I quickly put my already wet stuff under the glider. Water from the camelback, water from the rain. Oh well. It was worth it. I got Jim on the phone, and he was almost broken down. He told me he'd hit the road and call me when he got close.

After I got the glider 80% broken down, Jim called. He asked me "Did you say 180th West, or 80th West?" I said "180th West." "Oh, $*#(%", he said. "I am almost out of gas, and there aren't any more gas stations out here. I'll call you back."

So, I finished packing up and waited. Eventually, he arrived and we loaded my gear. By then, I was dry, but my stuff wasn't. Jim hadn't gotten gas, so we weren't sure we'd get back to town. I called my wife, J and told her the situation. She said that the closest gas station was probably at I and the 14 fwy. 18+ miles from where we were. So, we drove at a fuel efficient 45mph back to the fwy, hoping we'd make it. Luckily we did. Just barely.

It turns out Jim had his harness zipper jam up too. He also managed to solve that problem before landing.

What a great day! Lots of problems, but perserverance and quick thinking on the part of all made it come out just fine.

Thanks, Jim!!! And thanks J for driving us to the top of the hill!!!

OK, here is the rest of it.....

The farther I got from the hills, the more clear it was that that was the right call. I got a bit of lift and gained 400' in 50 fpm lift over a burned area. But the lift was light, and stopped at a bit over 6000'. At this point I realized that the wind was no longer from the East. It seemed a bit SW. "OK, do I try and get up and go back?" A quick glance behind showed me that the virga had become rain. "Nope, just push on and land into the strong West wind.

I picked out a field and at 800' reached down to unzip my harness. A light pull didn't do it. A harder pull didn't do it. Uh-oh. I messed with it a bit more, and couldn't get it to open. Since the zipper had slid down a bit in the last thermal, I decided to pull my feet out forcefully. I was able to wriggle them out. Whew! Unfortunately, my left leg was wrapped up in the zipper pull line. Not just wrapped, but my ankle was completely encircled, and my shoe jammed in the line. Not good. I reached down, and tried to get it untangled. No luck. And I was causing serious heading changes in a 20mph wind. OK. At 400', I decided that landing tangled up was safer than trying to fix the line near the ground. So, I leveled out into the wind. Then I had a brainstorm. I used my right foot as a lever and was able to completely unwrap my foot. Now with two landing gear ready, I set up my approach and made an uneventful landing in a field right near 180th West and Ave F.

After unhooking and getting my glider settled, I called Jim on my trusty cell phone. He said that it was storming at the Ave S LZ and he'd call me back after he got on the road to come get me. As I hung up the phone, it started to rain. I moved my gear under my glider, and pulled out the soaking wet bags. The entire camelback had dumped in my harness: Nearly two liters of water! Oh well.

Eventually, Jim called me back and when he did he said "Were you at 80th street West or at 180th street West." I told him 180th, and he said something like "*)(#$#, I'm at 75th and nearly out of gas. Are there any gas stations out there?" I told him no, and he said he'd call me back.

I talked to some locals, finished packing up, and waited. He arrived shortly thereafter. By then the rain had stopped. It never really got very hard, but it did keep my glider damp. I asked him if he had gotten gas. He said he hadn't, and that we might not make it back. So, we loaded my glider and gear, and got going. We cruised at a gas-saving 45 mph, hoping his tank had more gas than we thought. I called my wife, J, and she said to let her know if we made it. And no, she didn't know of a closer gas station than the one at I and the 14.

Well, we made it to the gas station (barely), and all was well. It turned out that Jim had his own zipper problems as well. Talking to some others, it was one of those days where everything minor went wrong, but all the big stuff worked out just fine.

From Avenue S to 180th West and Ave F. Not bad! Wind, 22.6 Miles, sailplane loops, 10k, rain, exciting landings and retrieve. Is this a great sport or what?

Thanks to Jim for getting me, and my wife J for taking us up the hill and watching our two kids all day so I could fly.

I've only been using a z5 harness for little while now and was wondering why you didn't use the velcro emergency escape on the zippers? (I don't know what harness you have or even if you have velcro on your zippers though, just assuming that you do.) I'm always looking for different points of view for different emergency situations.

allen

[quote="stebbins"]OK, here is the rest of it.....

I picked out a field and at 800' reached down to unzip my harness. A light pull didn't do it. A harder pull didn't do it. Uh-oh. I messed with it a bit more, and couldn't get it to open. Since the zipper had slid down a bit in the last thermal, I decided to pull my feet out forcefully. I was able to wriggle them out. Whew! Unfortunately, my left leg was wrapped up in the zipper pull line. Not just wrapped, but my ankle was completely encircled, and my shoe jammed in the line. Not good. I reached down, and tried to get it untangled. No luck. And I was causing serious heading changes in a 20mph wind. OK. At 400', I decided that landing tangled up was safer than trying to fix the line near the ground. So, I leveled out into the wind. Then I had a brainstorm. I used my right foot as a lever and was able to completely unwrap my foot. Now with two landing gear ready, I set up my approach and made an uneventful landing in a field right near 180th West and Ave F.

George will give you the advanced skinny. Here is all I know about the Z5, from a discussion on the Oz Report called something like "Which harness to buy."

I was asked in a private message about the Z5, a pilot who ordered one and is awaiting it. I thought I should post what I said to him here, is case anybody disagrees or has something to add.

Pod harnesses, if you haven't had a pod before, take a little getting used to. I was told it actually takes 10 hours to be fully comfortable in one, and that was true for me (much to my surprise). There can be a lot of adjustments to get comfortable (shoulder straps, legs straps) and the zippers can stick or break.

(The legs straps are adjustable, and if too short make it hard to get into the upright position. If too long, they restrict the flare.)

Of course I fly in a dusty, turbulent', mountain environment. The main thing I ws told was that you don;t have to zip up right away, there's no rush. Also, get the unzipping started way before landing. It is amazing how hard these things can be to unzip when you are busy with other things.

I soon cut off my shoelaces completely, after one got caught in the zipper. I now am careful about what pants or shorts I wear--baggy light Nylon shorts get caught in the zipper easily, whereas stiffer material doesn;t.

Two weeks ago I got my shorts caught in the zipper again, jamming it. Good thing I was a mile from the LZ. I could not get the zipper to work. Then I could not get the emergency-escape Velcro to pull apart. I actually pulled the red handle right off the harness, like a steering wheel in the Keystone Kops. (It was not sewn on strong enough). Eventually I broke through the zipper itself.

Greblo, our local instructor, later told me how to get out of the Velcro if it won't let go. You let go of the control bar and use both hands, one to pull the red handle and the other, from the other side, to push the Velcro apart. Flying no hands near a lifty LZ is not my first choice, so I get the zipper halfway down before I am 1,000 AGL>

That is probably everything I know about the Z5. I say all this because there is no Z5 owners manual. Wills Wing told me a few years ago that it is on the list of things to do but they havent gotten around to it.

I should have mentioned this. All of the racing harnesses don't have velcro. This is because if they have velcro they cannot be made quite as tight and streamlined. For the majority of pilots, this makes no sense. If you compete, you almost have to have this kind of harness. It is a trade-off, though. Oh, and another trade-off. If you have no velcro, replacing the zipper is a royal pain in the behind. You have to totally unstitch it, and then sew in a new one. I am going to have to take my harness to WW or to Betty Pfeifer at High Energy Sports to get it done.

My harness is a Moyes Matrix Race. The other Moyes Matrix harnesses DO have velcro releases but the Race does not.

If you are carefull, and don't wait until you are too low, you can generally get it open even without the velcro. At least open enough to force your legs out... But DON'T wait until you are low to do it, as it causes some interesting changes in pitch, roll and speed to do the forcing...

POD harnesses in general: The ones without the backplates let you get more upright than the ones with backplates. The ones with backplates are easier to control the harness pitch with. Again, a tradeoff. If you get one of the ones that lets you get fully or almost fully upright, I think that a pod harness is a great thing. But spend a bit of time in the simulator opening, closing, etc. And don't ever wait until you are low to open it. Get one with "escape" velcro unless you are competing.

In my opinion, if you get one that fits right (and it often takes a while to get it adjusted to fit right) they are the most comfortable harnesses out there.

Oh, and the implied question: The Z5 is a good harness. If I wasn't racing, I'd consider one myself. Comfortable, simple, lots of room without having too much drag. But if you try and compete in one, you'll get smoked on glide.

OH, and one more thing. Yea, your shoelaces, shorts, loose baggy pants etc can get caught in the zipper. Think about what you wear. Tight is good as far as clothes. And the tighter the harness, the more that is true. Some guys fold their socks down over their shoelaces before flying. Some buy "wrestling shoes". Most of them have flaps that velcro over the shoelaces. This keeps them from getting into the zipper. Mine are great. Comfortable too.

Thanks both for the replies. Any suggestions or ideas are greatly appreciated.

Joe Greblo spent alot of time with me making sure that I understood how to use the Z5 harness and time in his 'simulator'. I practice getting out using the zipper and using the velcro incase the zipper failed. When getting out using the velcro, I used the same way that Joe told me to get out by pulling on the red handle and also actually grabbing both sides of the zipper were it 'meets' the velcro.

I unzip the harness and have my legs free before I get to the 'corner house' at the roadway before the LZ.

I also (thanks to Joe's suggestion) try to grab my first thermal and get up a ways before zipping up the harness. One less then to think about when 'close' to the mountain.

As far as 'coming in' to land in the upright position, I've found out that I can sense the bar pressure better if I use the harness's hang angle adjustment to have me in a better upright position. I tried landing without using it and more or less holding myself in the upright position by holding onto the downtubes but it just couldn't feel the bar pressure as well because of having to hold onto the downtubes so tight to stay in the upright position. (I definitely miss the upright position that you get using the 'knee-hanger' harness!)

(hope all of this makes sense)

allen

>>>tried landing without using it and more or less holding myself in the upright position by holding onto the downtubes but it just couldn't feel the bar pressure as well because of having to hold onto the downtubes so tight to stay in the upright position

Try lengthening the leg straps one inch.

I'll try that next time I fly.

thanks.

allen

Good idea to unzip early, and not zip up too soon after launch. That Greblo guy usually knows what he is talking about....

"Hanging" on the downtubes really doesn't let you feel the glider at all. Not the best method. It is ok to get yourself upright that way, but you need to be able to stay upright without doing it. And in my experience, a better way to get upright (see below) is to have one hand on the basetube and one on the downtube. The one on the basetube can be shoved down (not out). That will push your upper body upright. Try it in the simulator and then up high and away from everything first, of course. (It is easier in the glider than the simulator, but use the simulator anyway.)

I don't know about lengthening the leg loops an inch. I have never heard of that. However, DON'T lengthen them much more than that. It will make landing itself harder. For a good flare (if you need one) you want the leg loops as tight as possible. If you hang lower your arms are effectively shorter. There is nothing wrong with using the "cleat" to keep you upright, except that it adds one more thing to remember, some time (so you have to do it early) and you get out of the habit of dealing with it, so if it fails, you are out of practice.

I'll bet that if you spend some time in the simulator getting upright, you'll find that there is some combination of leg position and hand position in which the harness will stay more upright than you think it will. However, it won't be as upright as a knee hanger, no matter what you do.

Also, if you have one hand up (downtube) and one down (base tube) then you can stay upright quite nicely. The downside of that is that you then have to do a hand transition just before you flare or during your moonwalk (depending on your landing style.) The upside is that not only can you get upright better, but you have more pitch authority. Just don't try it during landing approach the 1st time. As with all such changes, practice it high and away from everything. And be carefull when you transition your second hand from the basetube. If you do it while pulled in, you'll "balloon" up, and possibly start a turn. Do it near trim.

Or, just stick with the downtube method and learn to keep yourself as upright as the harness allows.

One trick that helps with many flying issues is to fly that way. Wonder how to handle your glider better from the downtubes? Fly that way while thermalling. Wonder how to stay upright for landing? Fly that way while thermalling or on glide. Have trouble working your radio in the air? Get high, then work the radio. Do it again, Etc. And not for just a few seconds. It is hard to be good at anything if you only do it for a few seconds twice a week. That is one reason landings are difficult. Heck, that's true for just about anything!

All good suggestions and worth checking out. I've been using the one hand on downtube and one hand on basetube method for most of my landings for most of my flights ever since my 3rd or 4th solo. It helps me to get more leverage when trying to pull in hard whenever I get hit by a thermal when coming into the LZ. (it's amazing how sometimes you can get hit my a thermal soooooooo hard when coming into the LZ that even a Falcon 195 doesn't want to come down!!!!)

allen

I'm new in a Z-5 and I found your discussion very informative so far.
My question: My leg loops are quite loose on me even though they are fully tightened. Is there a easy way to take up 2 more inches? When I zip it up my weight rests on the zipper. Normal?

My Z-5 leg loops are all the way tightened, and are just right. There is a local guy who makes harnesses, he can probably shorten yours:

Phil @ The Harness Factory 818.353.3551

I found that when I first got the Z-5, my launches were very boaty and unstable. Because the upright position is not as vertical as a knee-hanger, I was not pulling in as much as I thought I was. Took me a few launches to figure it out.

>>>When I zip it up my weight rests on the zipper. Normal?

Yup.

Check with Joe on this, but I don't think there is any reason to have tight leg straps on a Z5. That is, tight legs straps are not necessary, per se, although they may be right for you.

The deal with the leg straps is that the length controls the relation of your arms to the triangle of the A frame. If the straps are very loose, the A frame is higher when ground handling, meaning your hands are lower on the downtubes. If they are tight your head is closer to the apex.

The correct relation of body to frame varies with body type, height, length of arms and so on. Juat to add to the mix, gliders have different sized A frames (my Saturn has a relatively large one)

I can only relate my own experience. I am 6'1" and 195 lbs.

At one point, I just could not get upright in my Z5. It felt like my ass was hoisted in a sling. I would be on final, and still felt proned out. Even when I climbed the downtubes like a gorilla my ass was still high. It ws a very unsteady situation and my landings were weird.

Gradually lengthening the leg straps made the problem go away. They are now quite loose, and when I let the glider fly while ground handling it rises two inches before the leg straps take effect.

Theoretically, this means I have less flare authority. But maybe I have long arms. And also, I dont do full flare landings (although I can do a robust and violent flare if needed).

Result: My Z5 is now almost as easy to land as a knee-hanger, at least in terms of being upright with little need to hang on the tubes. Make of this what you will.

[Note: There are issues of one's "personal CG" operating here too. My Z5 shoulder straps are also long. Even this adjustment varies with shoes. I could not fly my harness barefoot, it is adjusted for boots with thick soles. A great part of comfort factor is getting the pressure on your shoulders just right when you straighten your body inside the harness. Also, these harnesses shrink over the years, so that I no longer use a block in the footwell. At bottom, if your Z5 is not comfortable, keep fiddling with it. ]

In general, the shorter (tighter) the leg straps the more flare authority you have. But some of us are taller (more flare authority) and some of us have longer arms (more flare authority). So for those folks longer leg straps are ok. But if you are short, round and have little bitty arms, you have to have your leg straps tight. Seriously, Christian is right. It really varies by body type, but all else being equal, shorter leg straps give you more flare authority.

It sounds like Christian's harness is actually not quite the best fit for him and by lengthening the shoulder straps he moves his body higher up in the harness. He is right that shoes matter, adjustments matter. The trick is to be patient, make small adjustments, talk to others with experience (especially with the harness in question) and take the time to get it right. It took me nearly 6 months to get my harness right. It got pretty good after a month or so, but I kept making it better and now it is great. Except for the fact that it seems to be getting tighter around the waist....

Christian, you said "It felt like my ass was hoisted in a sling." I just had a thought about that: maybe the shoulder/leg lines are too long? That would lower your legs and head, keeping your ass higher. I've seen that before, and it does make it hard to get upright. You need to hang in the simulator as prone as you can get and ask somebody how straight your body is. Some folks even like a (small) bit of upward arch in their back, but that is uncomfortable for me. But you certainly don't want your ass high. That will make getting upright harder, as well as messing up your aerodynamics... Of course, that might not be the issue, but from your quote, it sounds possible.

There are often lots of little adjustments on the harness that can make a big difference in comfort, ease of getting upright, and aerodynamics. And changes on the harness matter more than changes on the glider for comfort. They are also much more personal and subjective. What works for one doesn't always work for another. We aren't all built the same way. Think of Phill Bloom, Tall Paul and Cindi Benti. All very different body types.

More on Z5-type harnesses, from the Oz Report.

"About a year and a half ago I finally switched to a pod after many years in a cocoon harness. Everyone else
used them without any aparent problems, so I thought the transition would be easy. The first thing I did wrong
was not noticing the pitch adjuster was in the full up position. I did a static hang check that felt ok, not knowing how it should feel. After landing I was sure WW had screwed up and made the legnth of the mains too short.
"Felt like a fool after I figured it out. The next thing I did was forget to un-zip on final. I did a fly thru (TORREY) and had a fine landing. I consider myself a safe pilot (don't we all?) and was humbled that I could screw up
so badly. Now that I am dialed in to the harness I love it. I spent a few years with a back ache that only let me fly for about an hour in the cocoon. Now that is gone.
" I still struggle with the last 6" getting the zipper all the way closed as I have to reach down and tuck the top portion under my chute container. We all get used to a certain way of doing things and they become second nature after a while. I like the Z-5 a lot and wish I would have switched over years earlier. An owners manual would be a welcome addition.

--Brad Hall


Some random thoughts about harnesses:
A cocoon needs some instruction too (especially how to put the first foot into the boot: with your knee twisted outward!).
Legloops with one central front buckle are luxuary. Easy to put on and you really can't forget 'm.
When I am soaring the Dutch dunes, never higher then 100 ft, I normally close the zipper only halfway. If I do sink out, I can push the zipper open with my knees, and don't have to take a hand off the bar. Still, my feet are comfortable that way.
I love the slider system and the slider pullback rope on my harness, similar systems can be found on many modern harnesses. Personally I think they are not just for race pilots. BUT they need to be fitted really well before flying. Make sure when you stretch your legs, the slider goes all the way to the back end!
Same goes for harnesses that have two tubes along the back side. Make sure the pullback ropes are the right length; too long and you will be flying with your legs down; too short and there is not enough room for your legs.
A butt lever angle of dangle system is fine, but make sure it is set up so that you cannot go head up or down more then you will need in flight. Somebody told me, on an aerotow launch during his take off run his butt lever unlocked and then he found out he was too far from his speedbar to pull it back far enough...
Shoelaces? If mine happen to be long, I make a loop and push it under the bow.
Bell bottom trousers are out, especially if you are flying a pod harness...
After closing the zipper, I need to pull the upper zipper down a bit to really close up. I tied a little loop to the runner so I could more easily locate it with gloves on.
Following Davis' advice to protect the boot, I must see if I can find anything like ShooGoo here in Holland...
A harness with no shoulder rope may be a bad idea if you're doing a lot of winch towing.

--Bart Doets