Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

I've heard a lot of talk lately about accident reports not being necessary. I've also heard comments disparaging those who try to provide unbiased evaluations of accidents. (And not just from one pilot.) So, I'd like to make a few comments.

But first, two definitions:
Accident - Someone got hurt or the glider got hurt (including downtubes!) Examples: Failure to hook in. Getting too far behind the ridge and not clearing it resulting in crash.
Incident - Someone COULD have gotten hurt. Examples: Failure to hook in that a spectator caught for you. Getting too far behind the ridge and (just) clearing it by 10 feet. Nothing happened, right? No problem, right? Nonsense! You got lucky.

Accident/Incident reports are not perfect. We are all imperfect witnesses, and as a result any accident report will be incomplete and inaccurate. However, there are only three ways to learn from mistakes - Make them yourself, Hear about others and pay attention, watch others make them. None of us will live long enough to make all of the mistakes ourselves. That means we must learn from the other two methods. BOTH of those methods require that somebody gives us information. Biased? Maybe. Inaccurate? Probably. Incomplete? Certainly. But it is better than making the mistake yourself.

I've heard people say: "Accident reports are just our way of convincing ourselves it couldn't happen to us." Hogwash! Sure, some folks take it that way. But they have an attitude problem and THAT is the cause of THEIR accidents. Most of us would LOVE to learn from someone else's mistakes instead of making them ourselves. We just aren't good at it. The only way we can get better is to practice. That means accident reports.

I've heard people say: "Nobody could learn from my mistake, it was a 'one of a kind' error." Nonsense! Even if someone isn't going to make the same exact error, almost all errors are caused by multiple factors and most of those factors are more general than "I landed in the goat pen - don't do that." There are REASONS behind those faulty decisions. Analysis of those reasons helps others avoid the same mistakes: Overconfidence, Lack of practice, Attitude, Complacency, Fatigue, Cold, Heat, Dehydration, Lack of Knowledge, Knowledge that is incorrect, etc.... There are many reasons, but they are generally common to us all to one degree or another. While we are all special and different, we aren't THAT special and different. If you made a mistake, someone else will make the same mistake.

I've heard people say: "It is too much trouble." Well, aren't the lives and limbs of your friends worth some effort? If you don't have good writing skills, tell it to someone else and have them type it up. Then proof read it. It isn't that much work.

I've heard people say: "Nobody reads them." Well that isn't true. I've talked to several people who told me that when THEY were in a tight spot, the decisions made by others who filed accident reports raced through their minds. It helps. I know this from personal experience. I avoided trouble at Black Mtn on my 200 mile out and return flight because of Grant Hoag's accident report (Thanks Grant!)

I've heard people say: "They don't do any good." Again, nonsense! The aviation community (including hang gliding) is full of examples where large improvements in safety came about from accident reports. And you only need to help one person to make all of the accident reports you'll ever write mean something. I gave a personal example in the paragraph above. And there are many more, both mine and other people's.

Accident reports are important, as are incident reports. If you aren't doing them when you have an accident/incident then you are short-changing your friends. And if you are a witness and don't want to embarass your friend who had an accident, then you are short-changing them. Their lives and limbs are more important than your hurt feelings.

Is it embarassing? Sure. Is it a pain? A bit. But don't be selfish or a coward. Get over it and report like an adult. And I've found (as have others) that reporting can make you think through the accident more carefully and completely and with more honesty than just relating the story to friends or your instructor. So, reporting can help you too!

george,

as you are an authority on all matters related to flying--just go ahead and do the ****ing report for me! say whatever you like, i'm sure it will be correct.

As you are the authority on what happened - You DID fly into power lines, yes? I think you should do it. Your friends will thank you in the long run. It is for them, not me.

By the way, if you read my post, you will see that it was directed at more than one person. You weren't the only one I aimed it at. It is important stuff for all of us.

George, can you say "sanctimonious"? Your zeal does not play well to many in the audience.

This hardly seems the time to browbeat someone who might need some time to reflect before digging into the thought process and circumstances that brought about this end. We've all made mistakes and we come to terms with them in our own way.

I understand you want information but it is often easier to speak with someone face to face than to air their laundry in so public a venue. If you want the details so badly, call, express your concern and request, humbly and politely, an interview. And understand that one may not have the desire to give one. There are many forms of mourning. [/b]

Jim, I have great respect for you. What you don't know is that there has been a bunch of off-line stuff between me and Janyce about accident reports already. I only brought it to the public arena because I thought it was the only way to get through. Tactically correct? Who knows. All I know is that accident reports save lives and that I have too many dead friends as it is. Anything that might cut the odds of having another is fine by me. And if it means that someone doesn't like me because of it, that's a price I'll gladly pay. I'd rather have a dozen live ex-friends than one dead friend.

And as for "request humbly and politely", we are way past that. (See previous paragraph.) Besides, in any other form of aviation it wouldn't even be optional.

Who's the safety officer this year? Still Greblo, isn't it? He writes the accident report, as he has for many others, when the accident pilot prefers not to, speaks another language, or is in a full body cast. No names necessary.

All pilots, and especially new pilots, should review accident reports periodically. That's why the forum maintains a database of reports. Few of us are good enough to invent new ways to crash. See, for example, Paraglider Hits Kagel Wash Powerlines, October 11, 1999.

Accident reports need to be written by (or spoken by) witnesses. That usually includes the pilot. I specifically said it was ok to have someone else write it from your verbal input. Heck, everyone isn't good at writing these things. I've transcribed an accident report for someone else myself. But the key is that the people involved (Pilot, witnesses etc.) write them or tell them to someone for writing. And Removing the names etc. makes lots of sense except for one thing. We already know who we are talking about. The LOCAL club almost always does. That's just the way it is. Note that my accident report on what happened at El Mirage a few weeks ago had no names. Yet we all know who was involved.

Accident reports need to be written (or told) by the witnesses, which in many cases consists only of the pilot. That was the case with my incident in the Goat Pen. Just me and the Goats. Ouch. Other witnesses are better. Much better. But the pilot's input is invaluable. Only the pilot has any idea what was going on in their own mind. Only the pilot has any idea what kind of decisions (and why) were made. In many cases, only the pilot was present.

I've never had a problem with Joe writing up the report, if the pilot tells him what happened. But keeping the names off (which SHOULD be done anyway) won't stop us Kagelites from knowing who was involved.

Christian wrote:All pilots, and especially new pilots, should review accident reports periodically. That's why the forum maintains a database of reports. Few of us are good enough to invent new ways to crash. See, for example, Paraglider Hits Kagel Wash Powerlines, October 11, 1999.

I agree, review the accident reports. Great idea! But just because there is already an accident report about power lines doesn't mean we shouldn't put another one in. Each accident is different. Yes, there are only so many ways to cause a crash. But the thought processes are often different, and that's where most of the accidents start. Also, I have heard far too many pilots say stuff like "Oh, that was one in a million, it won't happen to me." When someone sees two or three or four of a similar accident in the data base, maybe it will sink in that it isn't just a freak accident, but something they can take steps to avoid. Saying "No one could possibly learn from my mistakes" (as was posted here earlier) is just untrue.

Somehow, George, I'd think that by now, pilots have seen enough reports on powerline incidents that they would know that they shouldn't fly into them. Not that they shouldn't be reported. Everyone likes to see a good pile up, shake their collective head and think to themselves "I'll never do something that dumb." We seem to enjoy reading about them, too.

You're correct, however, in your interest in the thought processes that led to the circumstances. We've already been discussing some of the major mistakes we think contributed to the incident. We just don't know what the pilot was thinking and, thankfully, that information can and will, probably, be made available.

But in this case it is close to home, as has been noted and maybe we all need to take a step back and wait for the main witness to report in their own good time. I'm sure our Safety Director will file a report in the Safety section when he has the information.

It is not a question of whether a report should be filed or whether reports are helpful. It is a matter of personal responsibility and privacy and our sensitivity. I have sense that we are all as a bunch of paparazzi, trying to get the first and best shot of someone's very personal tragedy. It's time to drop this. There is no further debate necessary. Besides, just once I'd like to be the last post in one of your threads.

Hatted One, No Tact.

Garrulous, Bulldozering.

Last Word? Ha! Fat Chance.

It seems we're all a little Japanese-y these days. Aren't Limericks Irish? That would explain a lot, wouldn't it?

Jesse: Nice cadence.

George: I thought you said "no rocks". I tried to warn you.

JBBenson wrote:Hatted One, No Tact.

Garrulous, Bulldozering.

Last Word? Ha! Fat Chance.

As I said, I'm not really a fan of Haiku, but I have to admit to the quality of this one. Well done. Don't have to agree with the thought to like the artistry. Well done.

I still like Limericks better. I can't for the life of me figure out why, but I find them quite fun. Oh well, I can't figure out why I don't like coffee either, but I don't let it keep me up at night.

So droll, George.

Update on Janyce's condition. X-rays were negative for hip damage. She may have torn a ligament but was told to rest for another week and see how she feels. She wants you all to know she misses you... well, most of you.

JT wrote:.....Update on Janyce's condition. X-rays were negative for hip damage. She may have torn a ligament but was told to rest for another week and see how she feels.....

Good to hear about the hip. That'd be nasty. I hope she heals up fully and quickly.

JT wrote:.....She wants you all to know she misses you... well, most of you....

Good one!

You're too kind. Maybe you really did attend charm school?