LZ fire cleanup - Thanks to all

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:55 pm

Glen; As much as it would make for wonderful straight in approaches, the 200 ft. line has never been negotiable for reasons presented in the previous post.
Hence the dog leg on final. Since pilots continue to crash near the homes with our current rules, it makes little sense to make the buffer zone narrower. Every year we have very close calls with the powerlines and the houses. They are usually hang 4's and the most memorable of course are the landings on Gridley Street, and the recent fatality that was right up against the neighbors fence. There are countless others that have come very close to the fence. Imagine what would have happened if those guys were allowed to do their approaches even closer to the power lines. Some pilots would rather endanger the club's future, rather than approach with a little more cross wind. Those pilots that don't have the skill to safely follow the rules and stay out of the buffer zone should perhaps be required to land on the hang 2 runway. I guarantee you this. If someone flies into those powerlines, we will all wish we took this issue much more seriously. We're already dangerously close!

Also, the hold short line as shown provides a danger to those of us that land on the grass by extending the hang 2 runway. The current hold short area is to the left (east) of the hang 2 runway, at the edge of the riverbed.

With respect to improvements, anything we put in, must be maintained. Over the years I've found that there's a lot more energy in our club for new projects than to maintain the existing ones. I'm not a fan of creating work for people that's not viewed by most as necessary or important.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:51 pm

I agree with all of that Joe. Our LZ is a pretty unforgiving in that it has hazards on all sides and close in. It's very important to stay centered and on track. I think maybe the ambiguity of exactly where that is can be distracting. The frequent changes to the LZ's shape and condition amplifies that. I'm thinking that this is the main value of at least the center lines with the H4 one being understood as the west boundary until you're over the ramp. Also I'd like to see two separate approaches for H3 and H4 to allow simultaneous landings if needed.

That's my thinking. I would be unwilling to do anything that you did not agree with on this. So let me know what you think. If nothing I'm suggesting is an improvement per your thinking then I will sleep-in instead, so no worries, mate. I'm just looking for way to contribute. If there is something more important that needs done, then I'll do that if I can. I really hate the feeling of helplessness about our recent losses and I want to fix it, somehow.

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:12 pm

Glen;
Your contributions are very helpful.
When it comes to creature comforts and aesthetics, I think the club members should and will make their desires known to the board. Given enough interest, I'm confident the board will be responsive. When it comes to the safety issues, I'm extremely vocal. As you can see, I've got a lot to say about the 200 ft. zone's dimensions. I love the look of your earlier photos w/ both sides of the runways deliniated. I just don't know how to do it in a way that it would be maintained. There has been a little talk lately about a grass hang 4 runway. I could get behind this also if enough pilots want it and are willing to pay the one or two hundred dollar a month extra water bill. After all, with a couple hundred members, we have a lot of financial possibilities.

JBBenson · Post by **JBBenson** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:18 pm

Since the touchdown point is the only part of the runway that really matters, all you really need are the "numbers". Since your are supposed to keep your eyes on the numbers, might help if we actually had some.

These numbers could be: "H2-3" for the wash and "H4" for the grass.

A big white arrow pointing down the runway would also help.

Your mind will fill in the rest: no need to make a border or anything.

Some sort of graphic at the end of the runway would help your "minds-eye" even more as to where the centerline is.

Cheap and easy solution is white painted bricks, set in the dirt.

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Tom C · Post by **Tom C** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:17 pm

I don't think we would need a line down the entire length of the runway. A few markers (one at each end and in the middle) on the centerline would give the pilots a nice visual reference for lining up an approach. These markers could be something simple like a small patch of gravel with a color that contrasts with the surrounding sand. The maintenance would consist of periodic weeding, rounding up the stray gravel as it gets scattered, and occasionally adding more gravel.

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:11 am

I think these are very good ideas also.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:00 am

The LZ has changed a bit since the fire and is a little more roomy than before, especially in the H2 LZ. I'll come out this week and survey a little and maybe we can put a point on this project. A limited set of markers with low maintenance as described would be very easy. I think we need at minimum: the 200 ft line, landing spots, and maybe a way of showing center lines even if only with a few inline marks. Maybe circles around the streamer poles. I'll bring line paint and the machine for painting just in case. If we just use strategically placed marks rather than lines, maintenance would be easy.

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:10 pm

I love the enthusiam you guys have on this. I'm still not the biggest fan of painting dirt or sand or grass as it looks like crap after a few weeks, and the wash has motorcycles and horses passing through. I'm still hopeful that one of us will discover some semi permanent way to create the white stripes. Another suggestion would be to encourage straight line final approaches and safer landings by installing a 6 ft. wide X 150 ft. long stripe of green grass on the hang 4 runway. This would give the illusion of a line while giving the pilots something soft to land on. This would have an ongoing cost for water, but maybe the hang 4's need it?

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:32 pm

I definitely could use something soft to land on!

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:37 pm

There, that settles it. I'm putting in a call to the mayor's office asking for the city to bring us all the used mattresses that the city collects and disposes of. We'll pile them up in the l/z for Don.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:49 pm

That must be a typo, Joe. Hang 4s...6ft wide strip? You meant 60 ft right? I mean were talk hang 4s here.

I like the grass idea, but If we are successful in growing grass around the strip, the strip would just disappear into the rest of the lawn.

If we embed pavers flush and paint them, it would be nearly maintenance free for a long time, but would they be a hazard since they would be hard when pilots use their faces to stop. We could do this, since it would not need to be done all in one day, and we could add to it later if we want. Maybe we will start with the 200ft line. I think I will come out tomorrow (Thurs.) to check it out, maybe bring some pavers, paint, and tools and try a test. Hopefully, I see you Joe to see what you think.

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:07 pm

Very good.
The 6 foot wide idea was to begin grass as lower cost beginning step. It would also very highly motivate pilots to be accurate on their landings. Everyone would try to land on the grass strip and the narrower it is, the better they would get at it.

JBBenson · Post by **JBBenson** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:06 pm

greblo wrote:Very good.
The 6 foot wide idea was to begin grass as lower cost beginning step. It would also very highly motivate pilots to be accurate on their landings. Everyone would try to land on the grass strip and the narrower it is, the better they would get at it.

No, no, no. They can't land ON the grass. We need to fence it off until it develops the proper root system. Could take all year. They will have to land somewhere else.

Paint the bricks white first, using concrete paint. WAY easier than trying to do so later. Ask me how I know.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:20 pm

A slightly more ambitious option:

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:22 pm

I love it!

Glide Junkie · Post by **Glide Junkie** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:21 am

Ok, here is a possible solution, more upfront cost but saves water and the water bill:

Artificial turff, it's soft!

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:44 pm

jesse;
Isn't sod ready for use after installation?

Glen, check out http:www/rubbermats.com
Bridgeguard 50 runners

dhmartens · Post by **dhmartens** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

We should eliminate any political boundaries with the landing strip. They do not seem useful and actually can increase danger. I know of no other landing strip that has them. It is more important to insert yourself into a proper and safe final approach rather than to later perform S curves or slalom. Hang 2's under a lesson program need to prove to the instructor and club that they can "make the hang glider go where they want it to" showing they can control the glider so that aspect still needs to exist. The laws of physics over rule the laws of the club.

with an 1800 foot landing strip we may encounter new challenges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIEBO7rvK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDEYpqS0yw
STOL bush planes

I love the grass strip idea. It would be great to aim for when landing. What is the cost to run a pvc tube to it and sprinkler heads?

JBBenson · Post by **JBBenson** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:24 pm

greblo wrote:jesse;
Isn't sod ready for use after installation?

I was only half kidding about the fencing off. Sod needs to develop roots, otherwise the baby roots will break whenever anyone walks on them.

I really recommend NOT to use sod, unless you are willing to amend the soil to a depth of at least 6 inches. Huge job. The soil has a high clay content and very rocky and sandy.

Without amendment, sod might grow for a little while, but as soon as the nutrients in the sod mats are exhausted, it will start to get spotty, get worse quickly, and die. Especially if everybody is trampling all over it.

Then everybody will spend the next 2 years removing the green plastic netting as it floats to the surface, offering a bitter reminder of time and energy and money wasted. Fingers will be pointed, and everyone will try to forget the whole fiasco, without success.

Sod: It will look good for a few weeks, then it will look like crap, then it will die.

I can guarantee it.

greblo · Post by **greblo** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:58 pm

Then are you saying that grass is out of the question?
John Wickham is recommending a native (perhaps Yarrow). As much as grass is unpopular these days, we may owe a smooth, soft surface to our topless, wheeled, and tandem pilots. They seem to need it.

What say you?

Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

LZ fire cleanup - Thanks to all

Something soft to land on

Turf not grass