Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

I think Chip meant to frame the concrete mold around the uprights, so they (the uprights) could be replaced at a later date. They are not so bad having looked at them. They can wait.

The thing about any project is where do you stop? You could make everything new but is this necessary now? Partial solutions are maybe the direction here.

Pavers will never stay level. Unless you set them concrete.

Wisteria could use a good pruning, but would be a real shame to pull it out: it is a nice old vine. Guess that makes me a tree-hugger.

What about a wood floor, like a deck? easy to do, and easy to disassemble if necessary. Could be installed in like 3 hours with a few people. Easy.

Paint it blood red.

A wooden Deck is a good idea that hasn't been mentioned. It could be built around the existing posts and could be raised above grade using piers.

Two things:
Head room, from being raised under the existing roof and the southern end of the gazebo is already tilting to the West. We could probably pull it back plumb, though. JB, maybe you should look into the cost for support structure and decking for this proposed option?

OK, talked to my friend and there are several options afterall.

1) Shore up the existing structure, cut the posts off at the new slab height, install stirrups, pour the slab under the structure and lower the stirrups/posts into the concrete, finish the slab; with forms ~ $2500 for a 16 X 24 slab (I don't know the actual dimensions so I guessed).

2) Waterproof the posts, pour around the posts; with forms ~ $2300.
this assumes the posts are in reasonable condition so they would have to be replaced anytime soon.

3) Slab with new stirrups set to replace existing structure ~$2500.

4) To make this as cheap as possible at any level, we do all the prep work, buy stirrups. build forms, tie re-bar, order the concrete and they just show up to finish = much less money depending on how much and how well we do. We need to get the concrete truck access so that we won't need a pump, ie., they have to be able to pull up near to the pour area; I don't think that will be a problem.

Concrete is currently costing about $110/yd.

A 16'X24'X 4" slab is approximately 5 yd concrete.

I didn't think we intend to drive on this so this is more like a patio and doesn't need the extra thickness.

If anyone is still thinking observation deck, it would be much more expensive to account for footings let alone the structural lumber. Maybe the container conversion is the better place to explore this item.

Comments?

JT wrote:
Concrete is currently costing about $110/yd.

A 16'X24'X 4" slab is approximately 5 yd concrete.


Comments?

I grew up on a farm in Michigan and whenever we poured concrete, we would fill alot of the area that the concrete was being poured into with rocks/stones and that would keep us from having to use so much concrete. Definitely, it seems like a lot of the rocks from the 'river bed' could be used to cut down on the amount of concrete that would have to be used. Also, why have one on the trucks bring in the concrete? Wouldn't it be cheaper to rent a portable concrete mixer that could be towed behind someone's truck and pour/mix the concrete ourselves?

just a thought.

Allen

OK, I wasn't going to get sucked into this discussion, but something that someone else said in a private email made me get off of my lurking duff and comment. So here's my (long) two cents worth.

If we are going to do much more than a quick fix on the gazebo, I think we should replace it. As much as I like the wisteria, we can grow more if that is what we want. I cannot imagine trying to put in a concrete floor around the plants. And how the heck would we put concrete footings on the posts without removing the plants? And of this I have no doubt: We need concrete footings. Every time we have put something in without doing the footings, it has rotted away. Yes, it stays longer than back east; this is a desert, but it rots away. And any gazebo-like structure is too big to risk having it rot and fall on someone.

My opinion is that it is almost time to to the replacement, but I haven't done an inspection of the footers. That's the key. If they are fine, then we can just fix and wait if we choose. If they aren't we are looking at a major renovation whether we want it or not. Anything in between is a waste of resources, since it will need to be done again in a couple of years.

So in my opinion we have two major options:

1) Do a bit of cleanup (assuming the footers are good.) Cheap, simple, and it will need to be done again in a few years, but we won't have wasted much $ or labor on it.
2) Rip it out and rebuild it. If we do it right, we won't have much more to do on it for years and years.

IF we do option 2, then there are (as mentioned in the posts above) lots of ways to go. But I suggest that we keep a few things in mind. If we rebuild, wherever we put it, whatever we do, however big we make it, it will be that way for a long time. This might be the time to take a step back, look at the layout of the LZ and decide if the current location and/or size is what we really want. Maybe it is. But it should be something that we conciously decide, not just something we do because it was that way before. Heck, sometimes a rebuild is cheaper than trying to upgrade what's already there. And even when it isn't cheaper it is often not much more expensive. Especially if the upgrade is extensive.

One last comment. The poll is nice, but so far we've had 18 votes, including mine. That's a pretty small sample to be deciding that we want to send out an RFP. Espcially since the "Leave it alone" and the "Just a few fixes" groups together are half of the responses! Half the responses do NOT want a rebuild. And any RFP should come from the Board of Directors, not from a club member. It shouldn't come from an individual BOD member either, but from the whole BOD. Let's not get stampeded into making the decision too quickly. Talk it over. Decide what the BOD wants. Decide what the membership wants. Decide how much our options will cost. Decide if we can afford it, and if so, which options we can afford. Make sure that there aren't any surprise zoning or legal issues. It won't fall down in the next few months.

I repeat, I'm one who voted to rebuild the gazebo, BUT I want the process done right. Getting proposals now is premature. We need to find out what the club members want first (in a general way.) If someone has a great idea that we haven't thought of, it should be out there and discussed; not as a "proposal", but as a suggestion. Let democracy take its course. Slow, and inefficient it may be, but it is better than the alternatives.

"Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all of the others."

--- Sir Winston Chuchill

One other comment.

Some might read my previous post as a condemnation of all of the free-flowing discussion on this topic. That is not the case. I'm thrilled about it. Even about the ideas that seem goofy to me. That's how we get ideas out there. I just want to make sure that when we are done discussing, we actually decide rationally on what we want to do and not jump into it. There are some things you can just jump into, and some that really need to be evaluated. Having a "road cleanup day" you can just jump into. Rebuilding the gazebo needs the full input of the whole club, I think.

Now let's go fly! Weather permitting.....

OK, I just realized that I might have offended Jeff Chipman by my post. I HEREBY APOLOGIZE for not including the following paragraph as a preface to my discussion of the gazebo.

"This post is in no way to be considered a disparagement of Jeff Chipman and/or anyone else involved in the RFP process. I have great respect for the work he has done for the club. And I do not and never want to discourage that kind of enthusiasm. There is nobody in the club who understands better than I do the thanklessness of being on the BOD. Much work, no thanks, and frequent villification. Usually minor, but occasionally large."

I can only plead that my post was already too long and I was trying to address the process, not the people. In doing that, I forgot that people often forget the difference and you must explicitly state that you are not complaining about the people.

I repeat. Jeff is a good guy. I like him and appreciate what he does for the club. I apologize if anyone thought that my post was a slam at Jeff. That was not my intention.

NOW can we go fly?

No harm done

Although I did pull the RFP from the action items .......
I may have jumped the gun, however I was hoping to get something started by telling those that would like to participate that others are willing to help get ideas in writing to the BOD so it's not just a bunch of hot air.

Proposals are just that ...........

We got an idea, here it is, BOD, give me some feedback on what can be done to improve the proposal or let us know what other considerations might need to be addressed, or just maybe all the concerns are addressed and the proposal is good, thank you.

Proposals can be presented many different ways, but if it's on paper then it will likely need to be addressed and placed on the agenda. Getting the proposals in now for the February BOD meeting agenda would be nice. I'm sure it will be discussed in some form next Thursday.

George, did you ever notice how much your little creed at the end of a post takes up in valuable forum space?

A note about new construction:
New posts will not have footings. The stirrups to hold them in place will have footings and the posts will be above grade to avoid rot and termites.
We will not have permits - see previous posts - unless someone else is mistaken we can't pull a permit.
Using fillers is probably not a good idea in a slab; they compromise the cohesion of the concrete.
Truck mixed cement is more consistent than hand mixed or small batch mixers. And the pour is more timely; small batches mean that early sections are drying while new cement is being poured. That makes the surface harder to finish. We need to have a nice finish since it will be here for years. We want it level so that if Vrezh gets ambitious, he could tile the whole thing in bouquet stone. I thinkwe need a professional job for this part.

George is right: we should take a look at the LZ layout.

George is right: this takes some planning and the first thing we need to know is HOW MUCH MONEY DO WE HAVE TO WORK WITH? That should be the first discussion to take place on this subject at the next BOD meeting. Maybe someone should clue-in Kathryn or Dan so that they may provide a current accounting?

George is wrong: we can't wait for everyone to speak up on this. They have their chance now, just as they do during the elections. Of all past presidents, George, you know that decisions have to be made and even if they're unpopular, the membership eventually forgives, forgets, agrees in hindsight or, at the very least, is glad that someone was willing to decide something they don't have the time or inclination to be involved with.
I don't hear anyone bad-mouthing the newest storage container or the outdoor furniture these days, do you?

Watch this space for an answer, right Jeff? Friday after the meeting?
No pressure, Buddy!

JT is right:

Determine a budget (allow for contingencies), have Board give one person the authority to spend it. They vote for a person, not a plan.

Said person submits budget-conscious proposal (no approval necessary), makes it happen, (however he/she deems possible), submits actuals/invoices/receipts at the end. Done.

If this goes to committee it will never happen. There are enough ideas to create a reasonable gazebo plan right now.

The only question that hasn't really been answered is: Is it possible to permit this? Either Land Use or Type V? Building without a permit is a very bad idea-IMHO.

Alternative is to pre-build off-site and just install in a short day.

The Board of Directors should name a committee, lead by Chip (who's on the board), to examine alternatives to the current gazebo. The goal of the committee should be narrowly defined by the BOD, in writing.

For example, "Provide proposals for a multi-use public shade area to replace or refurbish the current gazebo, at a cost less than $10,000, providing basic electrical, telephone and garden-plumbing services only."

The BOD has to narrow down the marching orders (i.e., do we want a jacuzzi and flush toilets or not).

Chairman Chip and his committee then tears into the whole business, knowing the guidelines. Through the forum everybody can participate.

After a few months, Chip's committee presents recommendations to the board. They are experts now, and can answer any questions with facts. If the Board is satisfied it can just say, let's do it. More likley, in its wisdom, the Board would call for a membership yes-no vote.

Such a transparent, semi-formal proceeding involves everybody. It may sound slow, but it gets things done and everybody listened to.

[hmmm. As I was writing this, Jesse was simultaneously writing that "ïf it goes to committee it will die." Another case of the counter-arguyment coming even before you finish the argument! ]

JT wrote:George, did you ever notice how much your little creed at the end of a post takes up in valuable forum space?

Solved

JT wrote:A note about new construction:
New posts will not have footings. The stirrups to hold them in place will have footings and the posts will be above grade to avoid rot and termites.

My comment about footings and the wisteria still applies. No reasonable way to install footings underneath the wisteria. The rest is details, which I leave to those more qualified. But thanks for the clarification. I think stirrups are a great idea.

JT wrote:George is wrong: we can't wait for everyone to speak up on this. They have their chance now, just as they do during the elections. Of all past presidents, George, you know that decisions have to be made and even if they're unpopular, the membership eventually forgives, forgets, agrees in hindsight or, at the very least, is glad that someone was willing to decide something they don't have the time or inclination to be involved with.
I don't hear anyone bad-mouthing the newest storage container or the outdoor furniture these days, do you?

No, but the box was clearly a money maker, and who can argue with that? Besides we DID ask for club member input. We learned our lesson from The Great Dues-Increase Wars. And the furniture was cheap in comparison to what the gazebo will be. Plus it is foolish to jump into installing a structure without full and complete knowledge UP FRONT of what we want. Once it is built, it will be there for a long long time.

JBBenson wrote:If this goes to committee it will never happen.

Yep, just like Towers launch permit won't happen because it is done by a committee. Oops. It happened! The trick is to have a committee that is made up of folks who A) Care about the subject and B) Have the time to work on it and C) Aren't goof offs. We did that with the Forest Service Committee. That's why those of us on it who are no longer on the BOD are still on the Committee. It is working, so we kept it the same. And yes, it is easy to get a comittee that does nothing. The key is to have the right people on it.

JBBenson wrote:There are enough ideas to create a reasonable gazebo plan right now.

Enough ideas? What about location? What about size? What about types of construction for the roof? Build it so we can have more wisteria? Build it so it has a solid roof to keep off the rain? Add pitch to the roof so the rain flows off somewhere specific? And I haven't even started yet. We have not had nearly enough discussion of this. And you and I might not like to hear it, since we are techno-geeks, but most of the club hasn't even seen these ideas because they don't regularly read the forum. If the BOD needs to act quickly on this, fine, they can just decide. But this DOES NOT NEED TO BE DONE NEXT WEEK. The gazebo isn't falling over. We don't have money that disappears at the end of some arbitrary period. Let's do this right. And no, I'm not suggesting that the club members vote on the details. But they need to have some input. For goodness sake, only half those who voted so far want a new gazebo!

As I said in my post, I voted for a new one. BUT, it needs to be done right. If I thought we were just going to throw something up, I'd vote against it. With that vote change the "new gazebo" becomes less than a majority. (Of those who voted so far.)

This will likely be a big expenditure of club funds. Unless there is a good reason to bypass the membership, I think it deserves a more thorough airing. Does it need a club vote? Probably not, but we should get opinions from a larger cross-section of the membership.

George, you do realize I was giving you a back-ass-wards compliment?

Anyway, how should we go about getting more input from members? An e-mail blast asking them to send in their cards and letters? At a meeting (we're always so attentive). It would be nice to hear from more of them. I didn't think it took a techno-geek to look at the forum.

I will write something up for the next newsletter by next week's end, assuming Cabbagehead is still putting one out...? To whom and how should input be directed? Chip, maybe that can be decided at the meeting with all the new officers. It will be at least that long before CHead gets anything out.

And I still think we're way ahead of ourselves without knowing if there is any money to do anything. Once we have a budget, we can make informed decisions about basics and luxuries we want to consider. Calling Dana: we may need a fund raiser!

To anyone else reading, try to get all the regulars, at least, to log on and say something soon.

JT wrote: Using fillers is probably not a good idea in a slab; they compromise the cohesion of the concrete.

hmmmmmmmmmm.............................it didn't compromise the cohesion of the concrete that we had and I'm sure that our concrete on the farm saw lots more traffic and higher loads than the gazebo would see.

[/quote]hmmmmmmmmmm.............................it didn't compromise the cohesion of the concrete that we had and I'm sure that our concrete on the farm saw lots more traffic and higher loads than the gazebo would see.[/quote]

Let's forget the debate about the cohesion issue for a minute. I can not even imagine all the time and effort involved in moving even one cubic yard of gravel from the river bed. And all this to save a mere $110?

You WERE joking - right ?

My response to the request for responses on this topic:

1) I am happy to see this issue resurface. The BOD has planned for a couple years to address the Gazebo needs and now it's time to do so.

2) In whatever construction plan that ends up being decided upon, please consider extending the Gazebo to provide shade between the existing Gazebo and the old Storage unit. Considering the BBQ pit and safety issues, I think it would be about half the depth of the current Gazebo. But those with more knowledge can determine such details. Extending the Gazebo roof would provide greatly needed shade for those working BBQ during Club events. The alternative is to continue useing our temp shade structures but I think something more permanent would be nice, if possible.

3) When you discuss LZ layout, just as a side note, please be aware that Kate is working to improve our existing gardens and I am working with Rome, Juan Corrall and others on a Bill Bennett memorial statue/plaque. At this point, assuming the Gazebo and gardens remain unmoved, we plan to place the memorial in the rose garden just behind the gazebo clock. We're in early stages on the memorial project and I believe we can work with the Gazebo committee to make sure we move in common direction and timeline.

4) I am glad I lurk the Pilot Forum

Lynn

We need a list of standing committees on the Forum so people know where to volunteer or direct their ideas.

JT wrote:George, you do realize I was giving you a back-ass-wards compliment?

Yea, but I was going to change it anyway, and it is smaller now.

JT wrote:Anyway, how should we go about getting more input from members? An e-mail blast asking them to send in their cards and letters? At a meeting (we're always so attentive). It would be nice to hear from more of them. I didn't think it took a techno-geek to look at the forum.

I will write something up for the next newsletter by next week's end, assuming Cabbagehead is still putting one out...? To whom and how should input be directed? Chip, maybe that can be decided at the meeting with all the new officers. It will be at least that long before CHead gets anything out.

And I still think we're way ahead of ourselves without knowing if there is any money to do anything. Once we have a budget, we can make informed decisions about basics and luxuries we want to consider. Calling Dana: we may need a fund raiser!

To anyone else reading, try to get all the regulars, at least, to log on and say something soon.

Newsletter is what I had in mind. Description of possible options, requests for input and choice of options. Suggestions. Then after a month or so of debate, let the BOD decide. A (small) committee to collect info, make the plans and get set up for the work would be good. The BOD is too large for that, but needs to make the final decision. Then get the folks involved who are going to do it, and do it. But, be sure that all have been heard. Lynn's comments are a good example of my belief that we don't yet have enough info. I doubt we would have stomped on the memorial plans by accident, but now that we know about them, we can work together. And the shade is one of the options that I was thinking about when I suggested that we didn't even know the size we wanted.

I am too busy to collect the info. All evidence to the contrary, I think Chip would do a fine job if he wants to do it. I offer my advice if he wants it, either publicly or privately. I will not be offended if it is not asked for.

As for the techno-geek thing, I don't think it takes much to be on the forum either, but I keep hearing folks in the LZ say that they read it once a month or two and often less than that (and sometimes never.) Heck, I sometimes go a week without, and I'm a notorious computer geek.

Let's just be sure we are doing what the membership wants, and that we've heard from all who might want to put in their two cents. Then let's get busy!

I could not see any way to vote. I only see the poll results. I would vote for complete replacement.

Some input for consideration:

A slab would be great, but I would like to offer the case for pavers. Large pavers may be less of a project, and maybe they do not require a permit. Also we would only need to pay for material. They may not stay flat forever, but they are easily reset and a slab can crack permanantly. Pavers could easliy be extended to the storage container, now or later. In fact, we could easily extend the pavers anywhere we want at any time to increase the area or create mud-free paths. Pavers may also allow us to preserve the wisteria, although they will need a haircut.

Incidently, I may be able to supply stainless steel tubing for use as uprights or other structural members. Where I work we use a lot of it of various sizes and I could probably get it cheap enough to offer it to the club for free. This could eliminate the need for footers. I'm just thinking that pouring any cement is creating a permanant structure that may kick in the permit requirement.

I hope this helps expand the possibilities.

FLYYYYY

>>>I could not see any way to vote.

That probably means you already voted. The forum software removes the option so one user cant stuff the ballot box.