Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

Doug,

The areas in Pasedena are very residential, where as the area in Long Beach where the 'Spruce Goose' was kept and would of been flying isn't; it's over water. Now days, if areas are heavily populated (especially if the residents are 'loaded' with cash) it's hard to 'overturn' no fly zones.

as i recall, from flying wilson in the early 80s, as a result of the rose bowl landings the city of pasadena made it illegal to have a hang glider within the city limits on new year's day. but other days were ok.

i mean i flew plenty of times there after that. but not on new year's day.

Wayne,
That may have been effectively how they enforced the law. But the municipal codes do not specify any days. It is against the law every day to own or operate a hang glider on or over public property. I don't think people feel as strongly now, so I feel it's the right time to change the law.

I would like to be updated on what, if anything, the City of Pasadena has to say to your inquires. We have some coastal bluffs in north county
(SD) that many of us have flown for 30 years. Several years ago we were almost cited, but weren't due to a reasonable Sheriff that let us off with a warning and a promise from us to stop. Here is the wording of the municipal code:

8.08.040 Hang Gliding
It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, assemble or use any aircraft including hot air balloons, hang gliders, kites or motorized crafts designed to support a person or persons in air flight or fly, launch or land upon any beach or shoreline within the city.

Is this similar to the Pasadena wording?

Brad

Busby wrote:Wayne,
That may have been effectively how they enforced the law. But the municipal codes do not specify any days. It is against the law every day to own or operate a hang glider on or over public property. I don't think people feel as strongly now, so I feel it's the right time to change the law.

I agree it is a good time for change, also
Just having a law on the books doesn't necessarily mean the city police department is currently enforcing that law there are many old & new laws that are not enforced. If it were me I would contact a Watch Commander with the city police dept and ask if they are enforcing this law & if not if it's O K to fly before you fly and see what he says. every city has it's own municipal codes Which they "selectively enforce".

Oscar,

Putting a watch commander in the position of saying he will selectively enforce municipal codes could backfire. The Deputy Sheriff I dealt with was a very reasonable and sympathetic individual. He said if it was up to him, he would ignore us. But he was put in the position of enforcing a code violation because someone had phoned in a complaint. Once that happened, the wheels were turning and there was no stopping the inevitable. Pilots may "get away with" flying some areas some times, but until the laws are changed the risk of a citation or more will always be there.

Brad Hall wrote:I would like to be updated on what, if anything, the City of Pasadena has to say to your inquires. We have some coastal bluffs in north county
(SD) that many of us have flown for 30 years. Several years ago we were almost cited, but weren't due to a reasonable Sheriff that let us off with a warning and a promise from us to stop. Here is the wording of the municipal code:

8.08.040 Hang Gliding
It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, assemble or use any aircraft including hot air balloons, hang gliders, kites or motorized crafts designed to support a person or persons in air flight or fly, launch or land upon any beach or shoreline within the city.

Is this similar to the Pasadena wording?

Brad

The wording of that code sounds like it does not include paragliders in the list of banned aircraft so long as they are not powered paragliders. Are you referring to Carlsbad? Where would you launch from, those bluffs are pretty heavily developed?

Here's an overlay of Pasadena city property and the Eaton Canyon Wash. I winder if it's possible to land in the little strip that's not owned by the city?

I was referring to Encinitas. We used to launch from H st., a slot at "the castle", a small patch at Stone Steps, Swamis, Beacons and a patch or two I don't remember the name of. All have been developed or fenced and Swamis and Beacons have "No HG permitted signs." The last few years we flew there we launched from a private property back yard next to Beacons and landed on the beach inside the high tide mark right below. This got us around any issues with the city until the code I referred to was passed. They do not make the distinction between HG an PG. A pg pilot was cited recently at the north end of the bluff. The entire ridge is 90' at the high part and about 40' at the low parts. It has to be blowing like stink to be soarable for hg'ers, but there is about 4 miles of cliff and it was a lot of fun while it lasted.
Brad

Brad Hall wrote:....
8.08.040 Hang Gliding
It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, assemble or use any aircraft including hot air balloons, hang gliders, kites or motorized crafts designed to support a person or persons in air flight or fly, launch or land upon any beach or shoreline within the city.
....

Italics added by me (above).

One has to wonder what they are thinking when they write these things. According to this, if a private n-numbered aircraft was shipped into (or out of) the country through the Port of San Diego, it would be a violation of this law. After all, you'd be "transporting" "any aircraft" upon a "shoreline" within the city.

Of course, that's not what they intended, but that's what they wrote. Just like the Pasadena law that makes it unlawful to carry your hang glider on the roof of your car through the city. Or for that matter, keep it in your garage in the city.

George,

Yep, it does sound crazy. Just a small correction; The code is for the city of Encinitas, about 25 miles north of SD, and refers to the city limits which end at the shoreline. They look at mean high tide lines, I believe, to determine where that is. The deputy told me he would have to write the ticket , which he eventually didn't after a long and reasoned conversation, and let the judge decide the merritts. The language sounds like it is written to cover every inch of the city under every circumstance.
Brad

Ah. I missed that it was Encinitas. (I lived in Cardiff, right next door, when I was a kid so I know where that is.)

So that means that if you take your private airplane out to a waiting boat, you've violated the law in Encinitas. Goofy. That means a seaplane couldn't be pulled up onto shore, either, I suppose. In any case, my comment was only that these things are often not worded very well. The Pasadena one is another example.

Thanks for the correction.

Brad Hall wrote:Oscar,

Putting a watch commander in the position of saying he will selectively enforce municipal codes could backfire. The Deputy Sheriff I dealt with was a very reasonable and sympathetic individual. He said if it was up to him, he would ignore us. But he was put in the position of enforcing a code violation because someone had phoned in a complaint. Once that happened, the wheels were turning and there was no stopping the inevitable. Pilots may "get away with" flying some areas some times, but until the laws are changed the risk of a citation or more will always be there.

Brad just out of curiosity how much is the citation ,and what is" more "is that jail time .what exactly are the penalties for flying in Pasadena. I went to the cities website and searched the municipal codes and couldn't find anything on Hang gliding ,where can I find that municipal code 8.08.040 pertaining to hang gliding

Oscar,

In the first post of this thread I listed the entire municipal code pertaining to hang gliders that I know of. The 8.08.040 law is actually in Encinitas' codes.

To find Pasadena's code start here: http://www.municode.com/Resources/gatew ... 6551&sid=5
Under Title 3 Civic Events and Facilities there is a section 24 on Parks and Public Grounds. And under that section, inside of Article III Use Restrictions there is a code pertaining to "Manned flight not regulated..."

It doesn't specify the cost of a ticket, or the appropriate penalty. I think the fee structures are calculated elsewhere. But, the political cost of pilots not respecting authority will be much more costly in the long run. Now is NOT the time to find out how much that ticket is! Let's get that law changed first, then we won't have to break the law!
-------

Jonathan,
Interesting overlay with the wash and Pasadena's borders. There is a strip of non-Pasadena land. I wonder how it looks. My hope is to get the law changed though, so we don't have to thread the needle to land.

Busby wrote:Jonathan,
Interesting overlay with the wash and Pasadena's borders. There is a strip of non-Pasadena land. I wonder how it looks. My hope is to get the law changed though, so we don't have to thread the needle to land.

Watch out. If it is legal to land in that spot, the only way to get your glider out of there is to trasnport it through Pasadena . Unless you get a helicopter to come take it out.

I think the ticket is $175. The "more" I was talking about was the ill will that would be generated if pilots decided to ignore or test the code by breaking the law. We have similar situations at Torrey and have had at least one person land on the beach intentionally many times to test the resolve of the park rangers, among others. The rangers are "law enforcement". That is part of their job description. The damage done by this one pilot took many meetings to overcome. There are many similar laws at other sites. It always comes down to the few that are willing to work within the system to promote changes and are willing to compromise for the good of all. A militant attitude and disrespectful commentary are seldom well received.

If I bought a hang glider in San Bernadino or Las Vegas and had it delivered to Sylmar by a courier like UPS (one that would handle the dimensions) and they drove through Pasadena where it was ticketed and possibly confiscated, wouldn't that violate some provision of the federal law on Interstate Commerce? Can a city make it illegal to drive a Humvee or a Toyota? The Supreme Court upheld a person can possess a gun in their home, overturning state law.

It is possible a hang glider broken down and packed up is no longer a hang glider.

The East Eaton Canyon wash "connects?" to the Houses near Kinclair Drive and Chickenwood Path where the glider could be extracted without ever touching any Pasadena City property.

I had an Idea for a Rose Bowl Parade float. On the back of the trailer is a hang glider wrapped in police "do not cross" yellow tape. The middle has 2 police officers giving a prone pilot a "Rodney King" style beating. The front has the rear of a paddy wagon where they toss the pilot in. The plaque reads "Pasadena: 27 proud years of hang glider repression" and "Aviation, who needs it?" etc.

note: a gps track log could prove in court you never entered Pasadina airspace or property.

Another note: The Pasadena law was passed (1 1982), Far 103 was passed later, October 1982. Since then I believe(not sure) Pasadena got the FAA to allow TFR when 40,000 are expected at the Rose Bowl. Far 103 also has a rule - no flying over crowded gatherings. So the Pasadena law may no longer be needed. Also the nature of the hang gliding has changed where it is more self policed and has a history now of being better behaved.

Busby wrote:.........My hope is to get the law changed though, so we don't have to thread the needle to land.

I wish you well in this pursuit!

dhmartens wrote: I had an Idea for a Rose Bowl Parade float. On the back of the trailer is a hang glider wrapped in police "do not cross" yellow tape. The middle has 2 police officers giving a prone pilot a "Rodney King" style beating. The front has the rear of a paddy wagon where they toss the pilot in. The plaque reads "Pasadena: 27 proud years of hang glider repression" and "Aviation, who needs it?" etc.

So Doug, are you volunteering to be the one on the float taking the "Rodney King" style beating?

Brad Hall wrote:I think the ticket is $175. The "more" I was talking about was the ill will that would be generated if pilots decided to ignore or test the code by breaking the law. We have similar situations at Torrey and have had at least one person land on the beach intentionally many times to test the resolve of the park rangers, among others. The rangers are "law enforcement". That is part of their job description. The damage done by this one pilot took many meetings to overcome. There are many similar laws at other sites. It always comes down to the few that are willing to work within the system to promote changes and are willing to compromise for the good of all. A militant attitude and disrespectful commentary are seldom well received.

Well after reading all of chapter 3.24 in Pasadena's municipal code that busby turned me on to in an earlier post( Thanks Busby)I found this- Article V Refunds & Penalties 3.24.190 Violation-- Penalty And it reads , Any person ,firm or corporation violating any of the provisions of this chapter is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction there of shall be punished by fine in a sum not to exceed $500.00 ,or by imprisonment in the city jail for a period not to exceed 6 months,or both fine & imprisonment (ord.3038 part VI*2 1932). That answered my question, Thanks All. :)This is how they treat pilots in Pasadena this has to change !