Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

abinder wrote:

dhmartens wrote: I had an Idea for a Rose Bowl Parade float. On the back of the trailer is a hang glider wrapped in police "do not cross" yellow tape. The middle has 2 police officers giving a prone pilot a "Rodney King" style beating. The front has the rear of a paddy wagon where they toss the pilot in. The plaque reads "Pasadena: 27 proud years of hang glider repression" and "Aviation, who needs it?" etc.

So Doug, are you volunteering to be the one on the float taking the "Rodney King" style beating?

good one.

I can tell you that landing on the strip you outline would be VERY difficult unless your on a standard. If your on a blade wing forget it. I spent an hour over this area the day Phill tumbled. I got a very good look at the entire area and I opted for the reservoir towards the south end so I could get under the trees and hide as soon as I landed.

The area north of New York Ave. is downhill and many bushes and trees to avoid. I suppose in an emergency you could do it. But when it comes to life and limb or ticket, I'll take the ticket and keep my limbs, thank you very much.

The reservoir worked out quite nicely. Doug came and picked me up with no real issues. Nobody came out and I think most people didn't even know I was there. But I wouldn't go putting 4 or 5 gliders in there either.

Doug and Oscar,
What makes you think that all hang glider pilots are responsible citizens.
It's helpful to understand how and why this law and other laws like it get written. Pilot's overflying the Rose Bowl on game day, complaints of hang gliders trespassing, rescues and aerial searches for missing hang glider pilots, an aerobatic pilot breaks up his hang glider (in flight) and comes down on a home, a pilot gluing large "F*&# Y@*!" letters on his sail and flying over the city. These are just some of the things that happened in Pasadena in past years.

These laws don't get written, just to give the lawmakers something to do. They get written as a result of problems that have surfaced. As Brad suggested, it only takes a couple less than responsible pilots to ruin it for everyone.

OSCAR wrote:

abinder wrote:

dhmartens wrote: I had an Idea for a Rose Bowl Parade float. On the back of the trailer is a hang glider wrapped in police "do not cross" yellow tape. The middle has 2 police officers giving a prone pilot a "Rodney King" style beating. The front has the rear of a paddy wagon where they toss the pilot in. The plaque reads "Pasadena: 27 proud years of hang glider repression" and "Aviation, who needs it?" etc.

So Doug, are you volunteering to be the one on the float taking the "Rodney King" style beating?

good one.

If it would mean meeting the acclaimed, exalted, and renowned host of the Tournament of Roses Parade - Bob Eubanks, You Bet!
Also, the police officers are women dressed in black leather mini skirts.
Form a line to the left.



Please note: in addition to the $500 fine and 6 months jail, The FAA I read could add an additional $1,000 fine for flying over a gathering.

The nightmare scenario for Pasadena would be like what happens in Europe for soccer games where disgruntled fans start to kill each other and burn the city. A hang glider causing a missed field goal down by 2 with 10 seconds remaining could trigger it.

dhmartens wrote:

OSCAR wrote:

abinder wrote: So Doug, are you volunteering to be the one on the float taking the "Rodney King" style beating?

good one.

If it would mean meeting the acclaimed, exalted, and renowned host of the Tournament of Roses Parade - Bob Eubanks, You Bet!
Also, the police officers are women dressed in black leather mini skirts.
Form a line to the left.



Please note: in addition to the $500 fine and 6 months jail, The FAA I read could add an additional $1,000 fine for flying over a gathering.

The nightmare scenario for Pasadena would be like what happens in Europe for soccer games where disgruntled fans start to kill each other and burn the city. A hang glider causing a missed field goal down by 2 with 10 seconds remaining could trigger it.

And Pasadena could hit you with their own $1000.00 fine or 6 months or both for Interference with a special event 3.22.020-3.22.030 and that's probably what happened to the Yahoo that landed in the rose bowl.

Joe is absolutely right on this. There always seems to be one or two individuals that want it their way, regardless of the cost to everyone else. This is nothing new, and it is still happening today at sites across the country. The risk of a ticket and fine is always a concern. Usually, but not always, this will affect an individual. Sometimes it will do harm to a site. The big picture is what it could do to all sites. Right now Lisa Tate is working on the USHPA response to the European proposal to limit all recreational flights to 1000' AGL. This is something that could ruin HG and PG across the country. Now is not the time to push against the existing boundaries for the sake of argument. As Joe said, Laws are made for a purpose. We need to work with the people who write the laws and affect change through reasoned discussion. Most of them don't give a damn one way or the other what we want. It takes reasoned, friendly and informed individuals to show our point of view to the law makers. I have never seen another avenue work in my 35 years of flying hang gliders.

Let me recap the things that I feel are important regarding the issue.

Firstly, the goal is to get the Pasadena City Council to change the municipal codes regarding hang gliding, with the intent of using the Eaton Canyon Wash/Reservoir as a landing site (getting permission from the LA County DWP who actually manage the site is another issue). So far, no other likely landing zones in Pasadena have been brought up.

Currently there is a HG+PG friendly councilman, Terry Tornek. But, we need to have some real, honest political ammo to convince the others on the council. Here are some things that we should be able to provide: safety records from other sites (Sylmar, Crestline, others?), endorsements from non-pilot locals, calls from Pasadena pilots (Ken, Erika, myself, JPL employees?, I'm sure there are others), endorsement from the USFS, history of Hang gliding in Pasadena (the positive stuff) and some beautiful photos to sweeten the deal.

I am going to email the other council members and introduce the idea of changing the law. Who knows, perhaps they are already amenable to the idea and just need a little shove in the right direction?

If anyone has any information, suggestions, or advice regarding such an email please let me know. This will be my first time bringing something in front of city hall, and I could use some guidance.

Busby,

I applaud your willingness to be the point man on this. I do have a few suggestions. Email is not the way to go. Most city council members get tons of it and have an aid that screens it. There is only a small chance the right person will even see it. Preparation is the key. Make up a folder with a brief summary, followed by supporting documents and a contacts page. Intersperse some photos that tell the story visually. Make an appointment, about 15 minutes, and deliver the package in person. Have 3 or 4 extra copies to leave behind with the request that they be passed along to other council members that may be interested. Wait 2 weeks and phone back to see what, if anything has happened and ask if more information is needed. This is about the best you can do at this stage. If you think a letter from a USHPA Regional Director would help, let me know and I would be glad to write you something on our letterhead.

Brad

Busby wrote:Let me recap the things that I feel are important regarding the issue.

Firstly, the goal is to get the Pasadena City Council to change the municipal codes regarding hang gliding, with the intent of using the Eaton Canyon Wash/Reservoir as a landing site (getting permission from the LA County DWP who actually manage the site is another issue). So far, no other likely landing zones in Pasadena have been brought up.

Currently there is a HG+PG friendly councilman, Terry Tornek. But, we need to have some real, honest political ammo to convince the others on the council. Here are some things that we should be able to provide: safety records from other sites (Sylmar, Crestline, others?), endorsements from non-pilot locals, calls from Pasadena pilots (Ken, Erika, myself, JPL employees?, I'm sure there are others), endorsement from the USFS, history of Hang gliding in Pasadena (the positive stuff) and some beautiful photos to sweeten the deal.

I am going to email the other council members and introduce the idea of changing the law. Who knows, perhaps they are already amenable to the idea and just need a little shove in the right direction?

If anyone has any information, suggestions, or advice regarding such an email please let me know. This will be my first time bringing something in front of city hall, and I could use some guidance.

I would suggest trying to go to as many city council meetings as possible ask to be notified of any up coming meetings here in long beach the city will shoot you a E-mail .always be Polite, well informed & ready for any questions.eventually You will be on a first name basis develop a working relationship with the council and will be more likely to get what you want .political contributions also help .I contribute to the Long Beach police officers association . and to my favorite council members campaign's .a little goodwill will go along way.go and get em Busby. I know you will get thing changed if you never give up .

*** warning - unusual post to follow ***

I haven't had the proper time to think if this is a good or really bad idea but here it is.

Maybe we are going about this all wrong. Instead of trying to reverse the law banning hang gliders, we should seek to strengthen it and give it some real teeth.

In exchange for landing privileges at the Eaton Canyon Reservoir the following changes would be written into and enforced at the following flight clubs:
Sylmar, Crestline, Elsinore, Santa Barbara, Torry Pines. Any USHGA member found in violation of the Pasadena hang glider law will be banned from these clubs and launches(Forest Service agreement) for a period of 5 years. The offending pilots membership and insurance coverage with the USHGA would be terminated and banned for 5 years.

This would give Pasadena new teeth to their law and they might go for it. We could require a gps tracklog for all Mt Wilson flights for backup evidence and maybe a panel that could determine that a wingtip in the airspace was not an egregious violation.

Thats all

Doug

Doug,

This is a bad idea on so many levels. I will let other club members jump in with the reasons.
Brad

greblo wrote:Doug and Oscar,
What makes you think that all hang glider pilots are responsible citizens.
It's helpful to understand how and why this law and other laws like it get written. Pilot's overflying the Rose Bowl on game day, complaints of hang gliders trespassing, rescues and aerial searches for missing hang glider pilots, an aerobatic pilot breaks up his hang glider (in flight) and comes down on a home, a pilot gluing large "F*&# Y@*!" letters on his sail and flying over the city. These are just some of the things that happened in Pasadena in past years.

These laws don't get written, just to give the lawmakers something to do. They get written as a result of problems that have surfaced. As Brad suggested, it only takes a couple less than responsible pilots to ruin it for everyone.

I agree with Joe 100%. Also, people that like to believe in the "well, technically I wasn't in violation" kind of flying. Why fly in such a way that supposedly, "technically" you didn't break any rules????? Better safe than sorry. Just fly where you're supposed to and nowhere near you aren't supposed to.

Doug,

This is wrong in so many ways. If that was a joke, say it now please before I start screaming "wtf are you thinking?!".

This would seriously hurt our sport. We're tying to get more people in to the sport. Not trying to scare them away. Not to mention that it would require people to have a GPS capable of recording flight in order to cover their arse. Not many people may be able to afford that equipment. Especially new pilots.
It takes time to save up for these things.

Any USHGA member found in violation of the Pasadena hang glider law will be banned from these clubs and launches

Way harsh don't you think? Again this would cripple the sport. An ambitious student decides to try to follow a veteran pilot to Mt. Wilson and cuts through Pasadena airspace by accident. Wouldn't that constitute a violation? So the student is banned for five years from four launches and clubs. We'd lose that pilot. The physical help, labor and revenue for the club. Plus we'd get bad exposure for being a tough sport to keep out of trouble. More bad exposure means a greater possibility of losing more launches, an already threatened and dwindling resource.

Best way to change is to show that we can respect property and airspace and police ourselves.

Specks wrote:Best way to change is to show that we can respect property and airspace and police ourselves.

Well said.

I don't want to be the one responsible for ushering in a New World Order police state. Another thing we don't want is a rule that makes landing out decisions more dangerous. I did talk to 2 pilots Saturday that have launched Mount Wilson once upon a time, one landed out at Santa Anita Canyon and looped in a rotor and landed in a bush, the other launched in a total smog whiteout with zero visibility of the ground. This idea does have merit on 2 levels - 5800'MSL (launch) and approx 865'MSL(Eaton Canyon Reservoir) But opening up another site would slightly diminish Sylmar's uniqueness in this area.

My goal in this endeavor is not to open up another site. My goal is to get Pasadena to change it's laws so hang gliders can land out safely and legally. I doubt than a proper landing zone could be permanently created in Eaton Canyon. It is a wash/reservoir afterall. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Great pictures by the way...

dhmartens wrote:But opening up another site would slightly diminish Sylmar's uniqueness in this area.

I don't think opening up this site for landing out would diminish Sylmar's uniqueness any more than the existing landout sites have. It's not like another club would be founded at that site. I'm thinking that if a new bailout landing area opened up it would be better for pilot and public safety while safely extending the reach of pilots.

Busby wrote:My goal in this endeavor is not to open up another site. My goal is to get Pasadena to change it's laws so hang gliders can land out safely and legally. I doubt than a proper landing zone could be permanently created in Eaton Canyon. It is a wash/reservoir afterall. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Great pictures by the way...

Great goal!

But don't write off the reservoir as a permanent LZ. Yes, there are days when it is unlandable due to water. (Acutally, it could be weeks at a time!) But the rest of the time, there's no issue. If the site protocol is to check out the LZ before flying, there should be no problem. Of course, that's assuming that you (or someone else) can get it opened to us. I'd love to fly Wilson again. There are some days when it is blowing down at Kagel that it is blowing in (lightly) at Wilson.

Good luck dealing politely and persistently with the powers-that-be.

The goal of establishing a LZ could be done in stages. As nice as it would be to get all you want in one fell swoop, you could propose a 2 year test plan with re-evaluation or the chance for modification. The point is, ask for what will work. Be willing to be flexible and have a fall back plan. You may not get exactly what you desire, but you may end up with something that works for both you and the city. Good luck.

Brad Hall wrote:I think the ticket is $175. The "more" I was talking about was the ill will that would be generated if pilots decided to ignore or test the code by breaking the law. We have similar situations at Torrey and have had at least one person land on the beach intentionally many times to test the resolve of the park rangers, among others. The rangers are "law enforcement". That is part of their job description. The damage done by this one pilot took many meetings to overcome. There are many similar laws at other sites. It always comes down to the few that are willing to work within the system to promote changes and are willing to compromise for the good of all. A militant attitude and disrespectful commentary are seldom well received.

Hello Brad,

Thanks for some of your helpful comments on this site. However, I was recently approached by a pilot at Sylmar who felt you were directing your comments at me ("We have similar situations at Torrey and have had at least one person land on the beach intentionally many times to test the resolve of the park rangers, among others. ... The damage done by this one pilot took many meetings to overcome."). I don't think you could be directing those comments at me since I have not intentionally landed on the beach many times to test the resolve of anyone.

As a fellow Regional Director, I'd like to think that you wouldn't make such an implied accusation without being direct and using my name. But since our circumstances have caused others to guess that you were implying that it was me, then I'd appreciate you clearing up the record on your remarks. In particular, I'd appreciate you simply stating whether or not you were referring to me in those (and similar) comments regarding Torrey. Thanks.

Finally, I'd also be happy to use my position as Regional Director to support continued (and expanded) flying throughout our Region. I'll be happy to add my name (and USHPA letterhead) to any efforts to retain sites and open new ones. All pilots are welcome to contact me by email (bobk@bluebottle.com) or phone (858-204-7499) any time.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3