Sylmar Hang Gliding Association

Busby wrote:My goal is to get Pasadena to change it's laws so hang gliders can land out safely and legally.

I agree with that approach 100%.

I feel that in the past, we've too often flown "under the radar" (literally and figuratively) at sites where we are not legally permitted. This has left our sports in a precarious situation at those sites.

I understand that we have to pick our battles, and I understand that it will take work to educate the people in charge and actually make the changes. But I believe this is the only way to secure our future. If we continue to operate in violation of various laws in a "Don't ask, don't tell" manner, then we are constantly vulnerable to being shut down. We may appreciate the good will of "Ranger X" who's willing to "look the other way", but when push comes to shove, we are a nation of laws. We should work to change those laws so that we have real rights and not just unwritten "handshake" agreements that can be withdrawn at any time.

Busby, please let me know how I can help you, and I'll do what I can.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3
Founder and President - Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club

Thanks for the offers of support Brad and Bob. I certainly will utilize your clout when the time comes.

My plan is as follows:
Talk to the employees at the Eaton Canyon Wash itself, and find out who is in charge. Discuss with them and find out if landing hang gliders would be a possibility. I'm going to try and find out if they have any concerns, and if they do I'll prepare information to meet those concerns.

Once the wash landing zone possibility is secured, I'll be ready to approach the council members themselves. With a launch site and LZ ready to go, the only thing in the way will be the municipal codes. First I'll send them a preliminary letter to ask them if they have any concerns about hang gliding. It's possible that like my councilman and the mayor, the rest of the council doesn't even know or care about the law effecting hang gliding. In such a case, the law change could be simply procedural.

If it requires more convincing, I'll likely get those letters from you guys. It'd be nice to have some more information concerning our liability insurance, public safety record, and hang gliding history in the area.

I'm going to swing by Eaton Canyon later today, just to take a look and to set up an appointment with whomever is in charge.

Having landed there before, I'd be prepared to answer the following discussion points:

1. Proposed landing patterns (there's some pretty big powerlines out there, a well thought out landing pattern is advisable)
2. Access to the wash (how do you get in and out of there).
3. If no access into the wash is provided (no key to the gate), proposed location pilots may walk out. Also where pilots can wait to get picked up.
4. Time limit on how long after you land must you be out of there. They are likely not going to want people just hanging around
5. Proposed landing restrictions (only hang 4 pilots with XC and RLF sign offs)
6. Emergency procedures for less than graceful landings

Sure you'll want to see if they will even entertain the notions (which I doubt they will). But having a few other things figured out before you begin the discussions will make it known that you've thought a lot of this out.

Landing in the wash seems OK as a start but it will not get the exposure hang gliding needs for better acceptance and more public interest.

Chip wrote:Landing in the wash seems OK as a start but it will not get the exposure hang gliding needs for better acceptance and more public interest.

You've got a good point there Chip, and I think there are several approaches to solve that problem. One of my favorites is the "spread your wings" program that I've seen described. The basic idea is to just set up a hang glider in some public (and safe and legal - check first!) location where there are lots of people and simply answer questions. Let them touch it, lift it, and maybe run a few steps with it (if there's room). Take their picture with it on their shoulders for them to keep. Mostly let your enthusiasm and responsible attitude shine through to give them confidence that you're not crazy (assuming you aren't).

I did this at a recent fundraiser held at a ranch here in San Diego. The fundraiser was to stop power lines and that put us on the same side with most of the other local ranchers and home owners. Many of them came up to talk about hang gliding, and a bunch of them lifted the glider and got a picture taken. It was good for building positive relations all around. We also donated some hang gliding tandem flights to their silent auction and raised some money for their cause.

Of course, this would be difficult to do in a city where possession and transportation of a hang glider is against the law!!

Maybe you could bring some posters....

P.S. Here are some photos from our recent fundraiser (May 30th, 2009):

*** UPDATE ***

I finally reached the permitting people at the LA County DPW. I told him my plan and he seemed to understand both my goals and the situation. Based on his suggestions, this will be my new course of action:

Submit a permit request in person for some point in the future. The LADPW will assess the permit and see if it meets all of their concerns (liability, etc). This will cost $125 and will have to be submitted in person.

If they give us the green light, they will do so conditionally on the law being changed. In the past helicopters and film crews have been given permission, so we've got a chance.

We can then bring the launch site permission with the LZ permit to the Pasadena City Council and let them know that the only thing in the way is the municipal code. Coupled with some letters of support from Sylmar and San Diego residents and USHPA Regional Directors, we might be able to convince the city council to overturn the law.

Progress is slow but steady.

Busby wrote:*** UPDATE ***
:
Progress is slow but steady.

Slow but steady wins the race.

Good job, and please let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I can write letters as Regional Director, and I can even send an email message from USHPA to the members of our Region seeking their support. I've also had some good luck mobilizing the Torrey Hawks to support sites beyond Torrey (like the photos above). The Sylmar club members have been great supporters of the Hawks, and we'd be happy to reciprocate.

You're the general on this effort, so mobilize your forces and you just might open a new site for everyone.

Dan,

I'd suggest you don't go any further with this until you speak with me personally. I'd like to bring you up to speed with the history here as you're about to involve an agency that has a background in doing this very thing before. I'd like to bring you up to speed on some of the players here.

JOe

Sure Joe, I definitely want to be as informed as possible during this process. I will likely be hanging around the LZ on Sunday, we'll chat about it then.

Earlier in this topic (July 6th) Brad Hall wrote:I think the ticket is $175. The "more" I was talking about was the ill will that would be generated if pilots decided to ignore or test the code by breaking the law. We have similar situations at Torrey and have had at least one person land on the beach intentionally many times to test the resolve of the park rangers, among others. The rangers are "law enforcement". That is part of their job description. The damage done by this one pilot took many meetings to overcome. There are many similar laws at other sites. It always comes down to the few that are willing to work within the system to promote changes and are willing to compromise for the good of all. A militant attitude and disrespectful commentary are seldom well received.

Hello Again Brad,

I'm sorry to have to ask again, but endangering sites is a fairly serious accusation. Some pilots who've read your statement felt that you were accusing me by implication in your posting.

So I am again asking for you to either state that you were referring to me (and supply some proof of that accusation) or to simply state that you were not referring to me. I think that is a fair and reasonable request in this situation.

I apologize for having to interrupt the flow of this topic to request this clarification, but these postings live a long life on the Internet, and I just want to be sure that the record is corrected in the same topic where the accusations were made.

Again I'm sorry for the intrusion.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Region 3 Director

Busby wrote:Sure Joe, I definitely want to be as informed as possible during this process. I will likely be hanging around the LZ on Sunday, we'll chat about it then.

It was good to meet you at the LZ. You've got great ideas and energy, and you've also gotten some great advice and wisdom from Joe. If there's anything I can add to that, please let me know.

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3

To me the glass is half full, not empty. Years ago people that flew over the Rose Bowl or landed at a Northern California football game and those people that pushed the envelope at the time were important to the development and status hang gliding has evolved to today. If those events didn't take place, hang gliding could be banned altogether today. Forcing the issue in the 70s and 80s happened to get the Reagan administration to implement FAR 103 which legitimized the sport under federal regulation. Regan had a "special" relationship with the FAA/Air traffic controllers(he broke the strike). Carter, Bush or Clinton may have written FAR 103 more restrictively.

Has the Pasadena law ever been exercised after the gentleman in who was arrested in the 80s? Has anyone else ever been arrested or fined?

Berkeley California had a law in the 80s that although marijuana was illegal, officers were instructed to give out parking tickets first and enforce marijuana laws as the lowest priority. If Pasadena never enforces the law then is it an issue?

Still, I had some ideas to punish communities that ban hang gliding.
1) No fly = no buy zone - The aviation industry would block themselves from using vendors in those cities.

2) Banning hang gliders automatically bans firefighting aircraft from making water drops in those communities unless loss of life is at risk. All things being equal, firefighters would route water drops to communities that allow aviation.

The 2nd idea came after reading how Malibu was discussing banning paragliders because it was dangerous. I thought what was dangerous was these water dropping aircraft risking them selves by getting low below a mountain range where Santa Anna rotors could pound them into the ground.

The aviation community needs to stick together.

dhmartens wrote:To me the glass is half full, not empty. Years ago people that flew over the Rose Bowl or landed at a Northern California football game and those people that pushed the envelope at the time were important to the development and status hang gliding has evolved to today. If those events didn't take place, hang gliding could be banned altogether today. Forcing the issue in the 70s and 80s happened to get the Reagan administration to implement FAR 103 which legitimized the sport under federal regulation. Regan had a "special" relationship with the FAA/Air traffic controllers(he broke the strike). Carter, Bush or Clinton may have written FAR 103 more restrictively.

Has the Pasadena law ever been exercised after the gentleman in who was arrested in the 80s? Has anyone else ever been arrested or fined?

Berkeley California had a law in the 80s that although marijuana was illegal, officers were instructed to give out parking tickets first and enforce marijuana laws as the lowest priority. If Pasadena never enforces the law then is it an issue?

Still, I had some ideas to punish communities that ban hang gliding.
1) No fly = no buy zone - The aviation industry would block themselves from using vendors in those cities.

2) Banning hang gliders automatically bans firefighting aircraft from making water drops in those communities unless loss of life is at risk. All things being equal, firefighters would route water drops to communities that allow aviation.

The 2nd idea came after reading how Malibu was discussing banning paragliders because it was dangerous. I thought what was dangerous was these water dropping aircraft risking them selves by getting low below a mountain range where Santa Anna rotors could pound them into the ground.

The aviation community needs to stick together.

Are you smoking something or what?????????????

Firefighting equipment that does waterdrops is either paid for by the state or the state owns them; not private individuals. Firefighting water drops help to save communities where people live. Do you think that they're doing water drops just for the fun of it???????

You've had some weird and bizarre 'ideas', but these that you just mentioned have to be the strangest.

If the aviation community was unified and would stick together then it would have "Power". Malibu would try to pass an ordinance saying "we would ban paragliding but allow water drops". The aviation power base would respond "sorry you cannot ban one and get the other". This is similar to what happened in Texas when they turned down the Obama stimulus money because of the strings attached. Texas wanted the money but refused to expand unemployment benefits to part time workers etc which was a prerequisite. Texas turned down the stimulus money. If Malibu was like Texas they would say "fine, ban both paragliding and water drops".

If hang gliding is like little condor eggs then when a community walks up the mountain and stomps on the eggs, why should they expect the big birds to come save them when they need it most.

dhmartens wrote:If the aviation community was unified and would stick together then it would have "Power". Malibu would try to pass an ordinance saying "we would ban paragliding but allow water drops". The aviation power base would respond "sorry you cannot ban one and get the other". This is similar to what happened in Texas when they turned down the Obama stimulus money because of the strings attached. Texas wanted the money but refused to expand unemployment benefits to part time workers etc which was a prerequisite. Texas turned down the stimulus money. If Malibu was like Texas they would say "fine, ban both paragliding and water drops".

If hang gliding is like little condor eggs then when a community walks up the mountain and stomps on the eggs, why should they expect the big birds to come save them when they need it most.

Doug,

You're trying to make comparisons to things that are totally different.

I think it's time to stop smoking that 'wild wood weed' that you've been smoking.

Just high on life, and hang gliding. It just seems we have to bend over backwards and jump through hoops for these politicians to keep sites open and try to open new sites. Californians got fed up too with this process and added the proposition system bypassing politicians and making laws them selves i.e prop 13. If we could get enough signatures we could create a proposition to ban water drops for communities that ban hang gliding and let the people vote on it. I could imagine the negative tv ads wed be up against showing gliders landing in stadiums, hitting houses, powerlines, cows etc. It would probably backfire and bring a lot of people into the sport.

Still, this idea would even work as a myth or urban legend. We could make and circulate a "list" of communities to fire fighter strategic, tactical, and aerial asset bases. On the top of the list would be communities that have operational hang glider launches and LZ's, the middle of the list would have communities that are neutral to hang gliders or that do not block LZ creation or enforce laws on the books against hang gliders. Finally on the bottom of the list would be communities that actively ban hang gliders. Just the thought of this urban legend in the minds of communities might cause dozens of launches and LZ's to appear in these mountains and others over night so as to get on the top of the list.

I'm sure those strategic and tactical firefighter commanders are well trained, have much experience, and use their "Instinct". But this list of communities might somehow affect their instinct even if just subconsciously.

One of the flying days, I got their late and didn't see it, we had a helicopter water drop in our LZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PytYPRIsJ38
Here is a water drop from a massive 747 supertanker, if nothing else this looks like a great idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUEqbLVfpGc
In High Def

Doug
We could write it in the proposition that California would buy one of these supertankers.

"Right now Lisa Tate is working on the USHPA response to the European proposal to limit all recreational flights to 1000' AGL. This is something that could ruin HG and PG across the country."

- This could be really bad for the sport as I read somewhere The US and EU were trying to make uniform all their FAA regulations and technicalities.

"I know there are a few pilots that call Pasadena home. I hope that we'll be able to rely on them to call/email their council reps when the time comes."

- This could be the clincher. Living or Working in the community and expressing your voice is exactly how democracy works. There is safety in numbers.

"Best way to change is to show that we can respect property and airspace and police ourselves."

- We are proven to police our selves. There is at least one pilot who is banned from Sylmar with the threat of arrest if he trespasses. He consistently violated club rules on aerobatics west of the Gavina bridge.

"1. Proposed landing patterns (there's some pretty big powerlines out there, a well thought out landing pattern is advisable)"

- Those are the type and size of powerlines that routinely give even Godzilla problems.

Someday firefighters may routinely use powered paragliders in there firefighting efforts. This would force all bans to change.
Right now there are some firefighter para-drops, like from this plane the Russian AN-32p which drops water and 30 firefighters.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:An-32P-1999b.jpg


Yuneec, A Company in China is releasing the first mass-produced electric paraglider for about $8,000. This makes them a very reasonable alternative to para-drops.
http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/paramotor.html

Doug